2 sexes fine.
The problem with self id is the few who use it to abuse.
What colour car do you have or did you used to drive?
Virtual patient in Virtual ward ??
Gransnet forums
News & politics
It is legal to believe in two biological sexes - Maya Forstater judgement 10.6.2021
(59 Posts)Here is a statement from Maya Forstater, on winning her case at Employment Appeal Tribunal :
youtu.be/jOIKlg71LJc
Here is the judgement given :
www.gov.uk/employment-appeal-tribunal-decisions/maya-forstater-v-cgd-europe-and-others-ukeat-slash-0105-slash-20-slash-joj
Appeal No. UKEAT/0105/20/JOJ
EMPLOYMENT APPEAL TRIBUNAL
ROLLS BUILDING, 7 ROLLS BUILDINGS, FETTER LANE, LONDON, EC4A 1NL
At the Tribunal
on 27 & 28 April 2021
Handed down on 10 June 2021
Before
THE HONOURABLE MR JUSTICE CHOUDHURY (PRESIDENT)
MR C EDWARDS
MRS M V MCARTHUR BA FCIPD
MAYA FORSTATER
APPELLANT
CGD EUROPE
CENTER FOR GLOBAL DEVELOPMENT
MASOOD AHMED
RESPONDENTS
INDEX ON CENSORSHIP
EQUALITY AND HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION INTERVENORS
Transcript of Proceedings
JUDGMENT
© Copyright 2021
APPEARANCES
SUMMARY
TOPIC NUMBER 26: RELIGION OR BELIEF DISCRIMINATION
The Claimant holds gender-critical beliefs, which include the belief that sex is immutable and not to be conflated with gender identity. She engaged in debates on social media about gender identity issues, and in doing so made some remarks which some trans gender people found offensive and “transphobic”. Some of her colleagues at work complained that they found her comments offensive, and, following an investigation, her visiting fellowship was not renewed. The Claimant complained that she was discriminated against because of her belief. There was a preliminary hearing to determine whether the Claimant’s belief was a philosophical belief within the meaning of s.10 of the Equality Act 2010 (EqA). The Tribunal held that the belief, being absolutist in nature and whereby the Claimant would “refer to a person by the sex she considers appropriate even if it violates their dignity and/or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading or offensive environment”, was one that was “not worthy of respect in a democratic society”. Accordingly, the Tribunal concluded that the belief did not satisfy the fifth criterion in Grainger plc v Nicholson [2010] ICR 360 (“Grainger V”). The Claimant appealed.
Held, allowing the appeal, that the Tribunal had erred in its application of Grainger V. A philosophical belief would only be excluded for failing to satisfy Grainger V if it was the kind of belief the expression of which would be akin to Nazism or totalitarianism and thereby liable to be excluded from the protection of rights under Articles 9 and 10 of the European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR) by virtue of Article 17 thereof. The Claimant’s gender-critical beliefs, which were widely shared, and which did not seek to destroy the rights of trans persons, clearly did not fall into that category. The Claimant’s belief, whilst offensive to some, and notwithstanding its potential to result in the harassment of trans persons in some circumstances, fell within the protection under Article 9(1), ECHR and therefore within s.10, EqA.
However:
This judgment does not mean that the EAT has expressed any view on the merits of either side of the transgender debate and nothing in it should be regarded as so doing.
This judgment does not mean that those with gender-critical beliefs can ‘misgender’ trans persons with impunity. The Claimant, like everyone else, will continue to be subject to the prohibitions on discrimination and harassment that apply to everyone else. Whether or not conduct in a given situation does amount to harassment or discrimination within the meaning of EqA will be for a tribunal to determine in a given case.
This judgment does not mean that trans persons do not have the protections against discrimination and harassment conferred by the EqA. They do. Although the protected characteristic of gender reassignment under s.7, EqA would be likely to apply only to a proportion of trans persons, there are other protected characteristics that could potentially be relied upon in the face of such conduct.
This judgment does not mean that employers and service providers will not be able to provide a safe environment for trans persons. Employers would continue to be liable (subject to any defence under s.109(4), EqA) for acts of harassment and discrimination against trans persons committed in the course of employment.
Ps.
People with variations of sex characteristics are, nevertheless, either female or male.
A minute proportion of people have variations in sex characteristics.
Most 'trans' people do not have that.
It's ridiculous to say that you should change your body to match some notion of what a female or a male should be - based on current stereotypes.
Present yourself differently, if you like, and challenge the stereotypes since your biological sex can't be changed.
You can do anything you like this doesnt mean you have changed sex. As that is not possible.
If you regard biological sex as dependent on the X & Y chromosomes, there are more than 2.
XY, XX. XXY, XYY, X0 to name but the ones I can think of.
Gender is what you feel you are. If this matches what your body shows, good. If it doesn't, you have to make what corrections you need.
Natalie Bird is a woman who has been barred from holding any LibDem party office for 10 years - because she wore a t-shirt saying Woman : Adult Human Female.
Natalie is suing the LibDems.
archive.ph/wcdqw
There are only 2 sexes, and no amount of hormone tablets, surgery or simply asking to be addressed as something other than the sex a person actually is will change that. Chromosomes determing a person's sex.
I could tell people I identify with being a unicorn, but no amount of whining about that will make it true.
You might like this interview with Maya - 30mins and there is a transcript of it also.
unherd.com/thepost/maya-forstater-todays-judgment-on-trans-is-a-landmark/?fbclid=IwAR3sh7IbRTF6kTLbPWtpXPCnuugXdIbE9mjpT0JiYSQOi7tRQxaDkxwA71Q
Common sense prevails at last and so pleased Maya was successful in the tribunal.
I’m learning Spanish and am learning which noun is masculine and which feminine. Let’s hope those who are hell bent on denying M or F don’t start mucking about with different languages. I wouldn’t put it past them.
I lend my congratulations to Maya too. ?
Well done Maya, a true heroine of our time.
It’s the right verdict in my opinion.
This verdict brought me joy today. Well done, Maya.
I’m nostalgic for the days when ‘gender’ referred to matters like the German nouns you had to learn, with their relevant der, die or das.
Kier Starmer! What on Earth is he thinking?
Here is an article by Peter Daly (Maya Forstater's lawyer) on the implications of the judgement.
It is very long but also very much worth reading.
go.skimresources.com/?id=470X1650972&isjs=1&jv=15.1.0-stackpath&sref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mumsnet.com%2FTalk%2Fwomens_rights%2F4267583-School-Suggesting-Daughter-is-Transphobic%3Fpg%3D3&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fpulse%2Fforstater-judgment-what-next-peter-daly&xguid=&xs=1&xtz=-60&xuuid=82a600182d821862b225fa4442ce2d7c&xjsf=other_click__contextmenu%20%5B0%5D
Sex is biological reality.
Gender is presentation in a stereotypically feminine or masculine way.
Or
Gender is a feeling that people have so they just 'know' what gender they are.
That's what I have gleaned anyway.
I've never quite understood the definition of sex as opposed to the definition of gender.
I am ,as I suppose most of us Gnetters are, of the female sex and gender.
I am not hopelessly insensitive, having come across a small number of transgender people, and I wish them well, but what exactly is the difference between sex and gender if there is one?
Well done Maya.
Well done Maya. And thank you
I know I cant believe I have to leave the labour again. I am beginning to look flaky 
. Seriously I am so disappointed.
I am so relieved at this verdict.
And Keir Starmer needs to give his head a big, big wobble... What a crazy thing to espouse...
There are only two biological sexes.
There are, these days, a multitude of genders...
Galaxy
She has been beyond brave.
She certainly has! The courage she has shown to face the interminable vile abuse she's endured is immense. Well done Maya, and here's hoping her claim will now be successful.
Good article by Debbie Hayton, a transgender woman who states she is male, in the Spectator. The final paragraph reads
There hundred years after the scientific enlightenment, we had perhaps taken for granted the age of reason that we were born into. It has served human society well when we prioritise facts over fantasy and material reality over groundless superstition. In the last ten years there has been a concerted effort to reverse that enlightenment. Forstater’s defence – that she was defending a belief – may seem strange, but if we cannot believe in science what else can we believe in?
I totally agree, Ilovecheese. The whole cause has been hijacked by misogynists, which works against the interest of genuinely misgendered people who, until recently, were gaining ground in getting public support.
I think that a lot of people who once took they view that this was a minority cause are waking up to the reality that it has potential to seriously impact on the lives of all women - I hope so, anyway.
As for Keir - goodness knows! I understand his wanting to be seen to support Pride, but the self-id issue is likely to have lost the LP a lot of members. I know several long-standing left-leaning feminists who have always been vehement supporters of gay rights and who have no issues with transpeople living their lives in their preferred gender, but who see self-id as throwing women's rights under a bus.
Join the conversation
Registering is free, easy, and means you can join the discussion, watch threads and lots more.
Register now »Already registered? Log in with:
Gransnet »