It is legal to believe in two biological sexes - Maya Forstater judgement 10.6.2021

A lot of men who don't like women are claiming to be transwomen.
Which is why self-id and acceptance without exception are a bad idea.

Yes I think lots of men use this debate to target women. I don't think they give one fig about trans rights. The judgement wasnt about harassment which Maya did not do, it was about the right to express a belief, which is now protected in law.

I don't think it is trans people who threaten violence, I think they are used as cover by men who don't like women.

The popular press will always highlight sensational cases, no matter how rare they are.

Varian, it’s the cases where things go wrong that make the news.
E.g My experience with transmen on mental health wards was appalling.
Rosie51 made another good point about crimes against women committed by transmen being recorded as committed by men not by what they claim to be.
I know 3 trans of either sex and I knew them before they made their decision they seem to be as peaceful as most of us and don’t actually mention their status.

I have no personal interest in the transgender debate although I have come across a small number of trans folk, all of whom I wish well.

It seems that the outrage and aggro is all about the fear of fake trans women (ie biological men) intruding on women only spaces and causing harm.

A few years ago there were more men wanting to become women, but it appears that this has been reversed and there are now more girls and women wanting to change sex (or gender, whichever it is). This trend seems to be connected to some extent to the perceived disadvantage of being female.

I don't really think that changing rooms are a problem. I am not comfortable with communal changing rooms so if I go to a swimming pool, I will if necessary, change in the loo. No problem.

I think the only serious issue which should be addressed is in the realm of competitive sport, where someone who has a larger male physique would have an unfair advantage competing as a woman.

I'm sick of all of it. Change the record.

If I was to fill a thread with accusations about far right extremism, the anti-immigrant and islamaphobic hate speech used by some groups of people and indicate or even vaguely imply that this is the general behaviour of all those whose politics are right of centre I would quite rightly be pulled up and told how wrong I was. And yet posters on GN when confronted with any trans issue insist on referring to violent and agressive incidents usually without any supporting evidence. They may consider they are not showing evidence of transphobia, but what else can you call it? Most transgender people are not agressive, live quietly, normal lives and if they have a sexual relationship prefer to have it with someone who consents.
Which is why I drew attention to the sentence.
FarNorth Maya lost her job because Some of her colleagues at work complained that they found her comments offensive, and, following an investigation, her visiting fellowship was not renewed.

But Trisher It's not people on here or on feminist platforms that post threats of violence and insults, it is people pretending to support transgender people and using that as a cover for their dislike of women.
Maya Forstater didn't regularly "misgender" people either, nor did she threaten them or laugh at them.

I think it will be also interesting to see the ripple effect of this judgement, there must be some organisations who are a little worried, and some women who will be currently seeking legal advice.

trisher who do you think is assuming they can ' behave as you wish' ? I think most people understand the judgement to mean that it is now possible to say there are two sexes, that sex is immutable, and not be targeted as a transphobe and unfairly discriminated against. Are you unhappy with this result? I do think that transwomen who rape with their penis should have it recorded as a male crime and not, as present, a female one if that's how they identify. Newspaper reports can refer to her, but should make it clear we are speaking of a male sex person.

trisher I don't think anyone on here has taken that attitude.
Did you miss that Maya Forstater lost her job simply for believing that sex can't be changed?
She did not insult anyone in any way.

I don't know if you think that 'lady penis' is some sort of insult - it's a term commonly used by some trans activists. Likewise 'girl dick'.

I've always thought people could beieve what they like but to all those celebrating this judgement I hope you took notice of this sentence This judgment does not mean that those with gender-critical beliefs can ‘misgender’ trans persons with impunity
It isn't by any means the' behave as you wish' judgement some seem to assume it is.

I am giving you my experience of posting on this subject. It's kind of how threads work we comment on things people have said. I was actually trying to reassure you that you wouldnt be harassed for having a view on this subject as you would on other platforms.

Galaxy that is exactly what I'm talking about.
Why are you commenting on what I said and not the OP

You said
' I don't think thats true to be honest'

That sounds like I'm not being honest in my opinion, lets keep
to the subject and off other people's posts.

I dont think that's true to be honest, I think on Twitter you would get some unpleasantness but I have had lots of discussions on here on this issue. There are people who disagree with my view and vice versa but that's fine.

I am happy at this verdict and well done Mya
It is difficult to find the right words to say more for fear of reprisals.
I used'age appropiate'on another thread and got batons waved at me,so commenting here could be disastrous!

If you have a penis and want to go to bed with a female that’s . . .

I think Stonewall has lost the plot here. As Matthew Parris, one of its founder members, has pointed out it was set up to campaign on behalf of Lesbians and Gay Men, who were at the time suffering many kinds of discrimination.

Gender disphoria is nothing to do with sexual preference.

Great news, makes a change.

Thank goodness she was. Lesbians were being dragged back into the dark ages. What right have Stonewall to abuse them if they don’t want to go to bed with someone with a penis. Sorry Lady Penis ‘.

Many, if not most, trans people do actually want to change their body to match what they feel it should be

Do you have any data to back that up varian as certainly almost all of the transwomen who posted abuse to J K Rowling on twitter seemed to be very attached to their "lady penis"? Isn't Stonewall saying that sexed bodies don't count, it's all about gender identity and lesbians should be prepared to accept the "female" penises of trans lesbians?

Many, if not most, trans people do actually want to change their body to match what they feel it should be. It is not about stereotypes. Thanks to modern medicine, amazing transformations are now possible. Even so, it has never been an easy process to go through.

I'd imagine that those who have gone through a rigorous process of psychological assessment, hormone treatments and surgeries may well feel that just declaring yourself to be a different sex is hardly the same thing.

FarNorth thanks for that link to the Peter Daly article. I'd promised myself I would make time to read it and finally have. Such an interesting and reasoned account. As is Iain Macwhirter's. I'm surprised there hasn't been more interaction with this thread, it really is a very important judgement.

An article by Iain Macwhirter saying what feminists have been saying for some time - countless organisations have accepted Stonewall's version of the law, rather than the actual law.

archive.is/2021.06.13-063017/https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19368938.iain-macwhirter-seems-women-allowed-vaginas/