It's not all over for the LibDems

Varian, I agree so much with what you say and yes, a progressive alliance is something we should be demanding for the next election. However, they must commit to and bring in PR as quickly as possible. Otherwise we will continue with this unrepresentative system 4/5 years later.

My choice would always now be green as I think their policies are the only way forward unless the politicians embrace the need for a radical change, and I see no evidence of this happening. I have previously voted and supported Labour.

I vote Labour as my constituency is a Labour constituency. Lucas is next door.

I would always vote tactically to stop the greater evil.

My position is very much the same as yours growstuff. Living where I do I would always vote LibDem but I would vote tactically for Labour if I lived in Batley and Spen. and I would vote for Caroline Lucas in her constituency. I cannot see a way forward without a progressive alliance.

Take To The Streets And Demand A New Normal 25th June

Rachel Swindon blog

rachaelswindon.blogspot.com/2021/06/take-to-streets-and-demand-new-normal_15.html?spref=tw&fbclid=IwAR2gjbvKDlsSUV1ZrbtJbmjynpohCFqmfND8lzpAep3N3qp1e0Jnqa50J2Y

The working class want Starmer to listen to them

www.councilestatemedia.uk/2021/06/a-letter-to-sir-keir-starmer-from.html?m=1&fbclid=IwAR3x7itWYrmRMyjiae86jprgYG_QJC-2F6f9kwivsl2a0YMA3p9_1VjykFc

I’m beginning to read lots of articles that suggests that the working classes in many western countries, who traditionally voted for a left leaning party are now voting for the right and hard right, leaning towards fascism.

This is what is happening in the U.K.

Traditional “liberal” conservative voters, who are appalled at things like the cut in foreign aid, the refusal to fund children in poverty, and what they perceive as cronyism, lies etc are feeling entirely unrepresentative. They are turning to the centre/ centre left political parties.

Unsure where that leaves the left.

growstuff

No, I don't think the majority of people are angry.

You haven't really answered my question.

What are you and the people you meet angry about? What would you want an incoming Labour government to do about whatever it is?

I'm sorry, but this is exactly the kind of conversation I've heard on the doorstep. People tell you that politicians are all rubbish, but they won't say what they're really unhappy about. The politicians I've met really do want to make a difference, but they can't do that if people won't say what they perceive to be wrong. It really is no wonder that some people label people who don't even seem to know what they want and how to get it as stupid. I'm not saying they are, but there's a communication failure and the responsibility for that is as much on the side of the people who won't articulate what the issues are.

PS. I support LibDems because I don't support socialism wholeheartedly, although I'm very much on the left of the LibDems. I am liberal (with a small 'l' - not libertarian - to the core.) I could support a coalition of LibDems, Greens and Labour. I probably wouldn't agree with everything, but that's what I have to accept by living in a democracy. I don't accept that a country should be ruled by people who only care about a small section of society, which is what's happening now.

Thanks for your post growstuff. It's clarifies so much.

Galaxy

I dont believe the being duped thing, it's much more complex than that. If you (the royal you) keep telling people that they are stupid and dont understand eventually they will go somewhere else.

The one area where they have been "duped" is into believing people sharing thier views are a majority. They are not. The country is made up of many minority groups, Some people, on some subjects having a foot in two camps. Johnson, using the tactics of past far-right and far-left leaders, duped people into thinking they were all singing from the same hymn sheet by not letting them see the words.

To some extent all parties do this. They have to in our FPTP system but it has never been done in such an underhand way as this government has.

Same here growstuff.

No, I don't think the majority of people are angry.

You haven't really answered my question.

What are you and the people you meet angry about? What would you want an incoming Labour government to do about whatever it is?

I'm sorry, but this is exactly the kind of conversation I've heard on the doorstep. People tell you that politicians are all rubbish, but they won't say what they're really unhappy about. The politicians I've met really do want to make a difference, but they can't do that if people won't say what they perceive to be wrong. It really is no wonder that some people label people who don't even seem to know what they want and how to get it as stupid. I'm not saying they are, but there's a communication failure and the responsibility for that is as much on the side of the people who won't articulate what the issues are.

PS. I support LibDems because I don't support socialism wholeheartedly, although I'm very much on the left of the LibDems. I am liberal (with a small 'l' - not libertarian - to the core.) I could support a coalition of LibDems, Greens and Labour. I probably wouldn't agree with everything, but that's what I have to accept by living in a democracy. I don't accept that a country should be ruled by people who only care about a small section of society, which is what's happening now.

I don't think they are listening to me, why on earth would they. I am not really interested in what the current government are going to do about it, I mostly know the answer to that, I am interested in what Labour are going to do about it, (I dont really see a resurgence in the Lib Dems happening but of course I could be wrong), yes people are angry so what? I meet and work with angry people every day, I also work with people who care for their family and community, are kind, etc etc. Some people dont know what they want governments to do, because they think about politics rarely if ever. That's the majority of people you are talking about I would say.

MOnica I'm sure you've heard of the science triangle of London, Oxford and Cambridge. I live just outside one the other apexes of that triangle in "silicon fen", which is why I assumed the demographic profile is similar and am surprised that it is apparently not.

Galaxy

I dont believe the being duped thing, it's much more complex than that. If you (the royal you) keep telling people that they are stupid and dont understand eventually they will go somewhere else.

I'm not telling anybody they're stupid.

Galaxy

I dont believe the being duped thing, it's much more complex than that. If you (the royal you) keep telling people that they are stupid and dont understand eventually they will go somewhere else.

So what do you think people are listening to you about? And, more importantly, what would you like the government to do?

I'm sorry to tell you this, but I have come across many angry people, who are quick to blame politicians and others and anybody they can think of and to become victims of not being listened to, but they're slower to define what they're angry about and what solutions they would like to see. If it's just a case of "not listening", what do they want to happen?

As I said, I live in an area described a The Science Vale, we have huge new science parks, lots of smaller ones, new research facilities going up all the time We have the research facilities at Harwell and Culham. Here we have highly qualified scientists and technicians moving here to work in their hundreds.

There are people moving here from London to be away from it, but primarily people are moving here for work - and very well paid work too. The LIb Dem candidate in the last election was one of them, as is our local LibDem councillor.

I used to work for the party and canvas and even stood for election once, but I have given up on the current lot. Each election I have gone to meetings, offered to work, man offices etc and they are wildly enthusiastic that I should join them and help and take my details - and I did deliver leaflets for a few years and we always put a board up but for the last 20 years,but that is the last I hear from them, I tried chasing them up, but now, particularly as my Lib Demism is less whole hearted than it used to be, I stay because there is no where else to go. I just shrug my shoulders and leave them to it. They have our vote. I am on the local CPRE committee, and the Liaison committee at the local power station,directly useful organisations.

Visgir1

Mid term swing vote not unusual.
You should really vote for the person not the party, perhaps she's a lovely lady. Good luck to her she has about 2 years to enjoy that job minimum.

Hope you are wrong. There is still two years more to display yet more incompetence and bumbling mishandling of Brexit
Also how tired will we be of a prime minister who can’t say anything without sprinkling it with colourful imagery which borders on the ridiculous. Did you note his inability to chair the G7 without displaying his ineptitude ie what the hell was he on about regarding “the feminine side” of policy. The look on the faces of other leaders was a mixture of bored increduality.

I dont believe the being duped thing, it's much more complex than that. If you (the royal you) keep telling people that they are stupid and dont understand eventually they will go somewhere else.

I was referring to the people growstuff met on the doorstep.
Yes growstuff that's why I said not you, but the left whether its labour of lib dem, who as you have described see a problem that needs fixing, if only they thought in the correct way. Being duped or being viewed as stupid, it's not the greatest of choices.

Galaxy

But you dont appear to know those people at all or have any understanding of their concerns, you see their views as things that need fixing. When I say you I really mean the middle class members/voters of labour and lib dems. Have you listened to Paul Embrey about the current situation within the labour party, I dont agree with some of his opinions, but I think at least he likes and knows the people Labour is supposed to represent. Currently it is the middle class dominating the labour party whereas before it was a balance between the two, now it might be that some sort of progressive alliance is the way forward (I doubt it but its possible) however currently it would be an alliance that represents the middle class and that's not really a political party that appeals to me.

You don't know me or my situation at all. I actually find your comments very patronising.

I do not belong to a convenient middle class, nor do I vote Labour.

I have spoken to hundreds of people over the years. It's those people themselves who think things need fixing and they speak about them. Unfortunately, they often don't understand how councils/governments work and they blame politicians without understanding what politicians can actually do.

Many of them are angry and just want to shout and blame. It's sometimes tempting to walk away and leave them to it and believe the lies of those who want their votes. It's obvious they're being duped, but of course they won't listen because they've been conditioned not to listen to the truth. Often ideas are deeply entrenched and it's pointless giving any facts because one just gets accused of trying to look down on people. It's a no win situation. I sometimes think they enjoy a state of being perpetually angry.

Corisanda

Shock, horror, government loses mid term by-election. Plus ça change. I wouldn't pin your hopes on a LibDim's resurrection.

Nobody is Corisanda, if you read the thread. And I wouldn't pin your hopes on history not repeating itself with Johnson getting thrown out after the biggest crisis in a generation. After all he sees himself as a second Churchil

I don't think I said anything about labeling anyone Galaxy [Fri 18-Jun-21 21:33:40]. I was asking about your labeling of those you call "those people".

Shock, horror, government loses mid term by-election. Plus ça change. I wouldn't pin your hopes on a LibDim's resurrection.

Anyway, good news for the Lib Dems.

Perhaps the West Country will be having a re-think now too.

M0nica

growstuff the rural part of the constituency cannt account for all the Conservative vote because the population of the rural area is just too low to do so, particularly as not everyone there will vote for the Conservatives.

Most of the Conservative vote comes from the rapidly growing towns; Wantage and Grove, Didcot, Faringdon. Areas where 10,000 and many more new houses have been built in the last ten years and it isn't the old settled population buying them, it is the younger family forming groups moving to work in the area, whether immediately in the constituency, or in Oxford or Newbury.

I have found this site very useful. www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/seatdetails.py?seat=Wantage

MOnica I don't know your area at all, but I do know mine. I've lived here for 35 years and have been active in local politics for much of that time. I have been out with candidates knocking on doors and have stood around windy marketplaces talking to people. The LibDems have built up a wealth of local knowledge about how streets and hamlets vote. Obviously it's not an exact science and there will always be exceptions, but we have a fair idea how people vote and why down to individual streets. We know how new building will affect voting patterns and target resources on canvassing, if we think they will be potential voters. We don't usually bother with areas where we know there will be almost no support because we don't have the resources to cover everybody. Of course, some of those people then complain that nobody has leafleted them. In truth, all some of them want is an opportunity to rant.

I don't know who is moving to your area. Here it is often people moving out of London, who tend to be wealthy (from selling property) but socially liberal. They are usually graduates, who tend to be far less conservative (with a small "c") than lifelong country dwellers. I would be surprised if the pattern in your area is very different, but it could be. That's why it's very important for political parties to have strong local networks of people who really understand the area first hand, not just from third party statistics.

I dont think the Tories are working for the common good, however I also dont think viewing traditional labour voters, red wall voters, however you would like to label them, as a problem that needs fixing, is anything but divisive.