It's not all over for the LibDems

Whitewavemark2

Yes definitely a progressive alliance.

Someone on the centre left needs to begin talks etc.

This, the only way.

If the Left of the Labour Party does not come to understand the realities of the First Past the Post system, they will let this disastrous bunch of Tories again- Simple as that. Same if they refuse to make clever alliance with others.

AGain, I think things are turning against Johnson- and again, I think once it starts, it will happen very fast.

If they stood up now and started putting them forward they would be hauled over the coals for not allowing the government to "concentrate on Covid".

Hopefully they are working on these things and forming good policies and argument behind the scenes ready to hit the Tories with them when we have a bit more stability.

Grany

The working class want Starmer to listen to them

www.councilestatemedia.uk/2021/06/a-letter-to-sir-keir-starmer-from.html?m=1&fbclid=IwAR3x7itWYrmRMyjiae86jprgYG_QJC-2F6f9kwivsl2a0YMA3p9_1VjykFc

Although this "letter from a member of the working class" may reflect his lived experience and that of many others, I think his advice to Kier Starmer, if followed, would relegate the Labour Party to the fringes of politics for a very long time.

1 Listen to the working class - listen to everyone
2 Actually oppose the Tory government- but not opposition for its own sake. Sometimes, especially in a pandemic there needs to be a concensus
3 Apologise for the People's Vote - certainly not, the Peoples Vote was supported by most Labour voters (most Labour voters and members voted Remain)
4 Reinstate Jeremy Corbyn - no way, he had his chance and proved to be the biggest vote catcher for the Tories
5 Stop expelling activists- no, all parties should expel those who fragrantly break the rules, like antisemitic behaviour
6 Build bridges with unions - are the unions not the tail wagging the Labour Party dog already? That is how it appears
7 Honour your ten pledges - what pledges have not been honoured?
8 Build upon the 2019 manifesto- all parties build on previous manifestos, the 2019 LP manifesto did not win them power

varian

Grany

The working class want Starmer to listen to them

www.councilestatemedia.uk/2021/06/a-letter-to-sir-keir-starmer-from.html?m=1&fbclid=IwAR3x7itWYrmRMyjiae86jprgYG_QJC-2F6f9kwivsl2a0YMA3p9_1VjykFc

Although this "letter from a member of the working class" may reflect his lived experience and that of many others, I think his advice to Kier Starmer, if followed, would relegate the Labour Party to the fringes of politics for a very long time.

1 Listen to the working class - listen to everyone
2 Actually oppose the Tory government- but not opposition for its own sake. Sometimes, especially in a pandemic there needs to be a concensus
3 Apologise for the People's Vote - certainly not, the Peoples Vote was supported by most Labour voters (most Labour voters and members voted Remain)
4 Reinstate Jeremy Corbyn - no way, he had his chance and proved to be the biggest vote catcher for the Tories
5 Stop expelling activists- no, all parties should expel those who fragrantly break the rules, like antisemitic behaviour
6 Build bridges with unions - are the unions not the tail wagging the Labour Party dog already? That is how it appears
7 Honour your ten pledges - what pledges have not been honoured?
8 Build upon the 2019 manifesto- all parties build on previous manifestos, the 2019 LP manifesto did not win them power

Have to disagree with you Varian

1 Listen to the working class - listen to everyone Yes but don't ignore thevworking class.
2 Actually oppose the Tory government- but not opposition for its own sake. Sometimes, especially in a pandemic there needs to be a concensus
In a pandemic like Attlee during after the war you have to give people hope give them polices Opose this dreadful government that's what opposition is for.
3 Apologise for the People's Vote - certainly not, the Peoples Vote was supported by most Labour voters (most Labour voters and members voted Remain) Starmer went rogue not followed party line agreed on by party at conference
4 Reinstate Jeremy Corbyn - no way, he had his chance and proved to be the biggest vote catcher for the Tories no point on picking on Jeremy Corbyn he brought hope thousands became member of party including me and the younger voter now Starmer is putting everybody off in droves.
5 Stop expelling activists- no, all parties should expel those who fragrantly break the rules, like antisemitic behaviour Antisemitism was weaponised used to attack Corbyn, Starmer knows this. Activists are thoses who go out and Campaign for Labour.
6 Build bridges with unions - are the unions not the tail wagging the Labour Party dog already? That is how it appears Work with the unions they fund Labour and always been part of Labour.
7 Honour your ten pledges - what pledges have not been honoured? If you Google he has not kept any pledges and worryingly the Grren recovery industrial revolution he has watered it down.
8 Build upon the 2019 manifesto- all parties build on previous manifestos, the 2019 LP manifesto did not win them power Starmer has no polices the 2017/ 19 was what many people agreed with supported Who wouldn't.
Anyway The Lib Dems went into coalition with Tories and had worst supported austerity measures culminating in the response to the pandemic

Grany thanks for the link to that great letter.
I loved -"flag shagging"! I shall think of that now every time I see Starmer.

You're welcome trisher me too.

All this rubbish about class.

We have had an electrician in our house all day. He lives in a house identical to my son's, but with a bigger garden. My son is a senior academic. I reckon that both of them have a similar income and work similar long hours. Chatting to him we discuss food and he too is buying his bread from the local artisan bakery and we both visit the same farmshops and he holidays in Southwold - as does DS.

These stupid class classifications are out of date, and misleading, All that matters these days is how much you earn and how expensive housing is locally. I live in an area with close to zero unemployment.

Craftsmen and artisans and even those on minimum wage in this area have good lives and good housing and their lives are less like than those of a people in the same 'class' in a poor inner city than they are like the highly educated, highly specialised 'middle-class' neighbours who are their neighbours and living next door.

The OP said nothing about class divisions.

I took it to indicate that what happened in Chesham and Amersham could be repeated again and again, and make a huge difference to British Politics. I hope so, for sure.

M0nica

All this rubbish about class.

We have had an electrician in our house all day. He lives in a house identical to my son's, but with a bigger garden. My son is a senior academic. I reckon that both of them have a similar income and work similar long hours. Chatting to him we discuss food and he too is buying his bread from the local artisan bakery and we both visit the same farmshops and he holidays in Southwold - as does DS.

These stupid class classifications are out of date, and misleading, All that matters these days is how much you earn and how expensive housing is locally. I live in an area with close to zero unemployment.

Craftsmen and artisans and even those on minimum wage in this area have good lives and good housing and their lives are less like than those of a people in the same 'class' in a poor inner city than they are like the highly educated, highly specialised 'middle-class' neighbours who are their neighbours and living next door.

So what would you call those people living on run down council estates, doing insecure jobs for the minimum wage, barely able to feed and clothe their children, depending sometimes on benefits and falling into debt?

Bercow has just defected to Labour. Things are looking up.

Trisher I would call them poor and disadvantaged.

More to the point they would probably fall into an income group like 'household income less than £15,000'.

But it is ridiculous to place an unemployed electrician, living on a deprived estate in a poor mining town in the North East in the same 'class' as an affluent self-employed electrician with a very nice house and garden in a pretty village in the south east, shopping in Farm shops and spending his holiday's in Suffolk and think that you can make any 'class' link between their lives beyond their ability to do electrical wiring etc.

This is probably the best distinction I've seen and it does divide them www.cliffsnotes.com/study-guides/sociology/social-and-global-stratification/types-of-social-classes-of-people

That is the US, trisher
Is the definition of working class universal?

Working class here is supposed to include those in manual occupations, but our plumber owns three houses, the electrician lives in a house like ours and the other neighbour is a managing director of national companies.

Does it mean those not in permanent employment (no, that would include the interim MD).

All sorts of institutions, from government, educationalists, health, police use class as an identifier of behaviour.

They might but it doesn't make it true.

Well, class informs many decisions made by these institutions.

Here's the British equivalent en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Class_Survey

It's interesting that the notes quote the USA trisher. Whenever I hear a comment from them I rarely hear anything about "social" class although it does exist. You are much more likely to hear them talk of low income, middle income and wealthy.

What about the retired?

We don't fit in anywhere!
?

We know for instance that children living in poverty will have much poorer health outcomes, and often educational outcomes.

Callistemon

What about the retired?

We don't fit in anywhere!
?

We are just millstones!

All sorts of institutions, from government, educationalists, health, police use class as an identifier of behaviour.

Well, no wonder they so often get things so catastrophically wrong and having read the other link on social class. I think both are completely wrong for the simple reason that there reearch is based on the belief that class exists and people fall into them neatly based on jobs and a few other social constructs. In a case like that they are defining everything by what they beleive to be true

Their minds work like those of anti-vaxxers. They know that the vaccination is dangerous, so everything they learn about the vaccine is interpreted on based of their core belief.

There are so many things that affect peoples lives and living patterns outside crude divisions of occupation but overwhelmingly what defines people's lives, regardless of what they do, is how much money they have to live on each week.

As I said up thread, my local electrician's life style, income living conditions, are far away from his unemployed counterpart in a deprived part of the north east and much closer to the lifestyle of my son who is an academic. They would get on like a house on fire. They both holidayed in Southwold last year.

We are just millstones!

Boomers!
(Actually, I'm not!)

Whitewavemark2

We know for instance that children living in poverty will have much poorer health outcomes, and often educational outcomes.

But which class is that?

As I said up thread, my local electrician's life style, income living conditions, are far away from his unemployed counterpart in a deprived part of the north east

You'll have to find another trade for comparison, MOnica. Electricians are like gold dust in my part of the NE (area of high deprivation).