Sajid Javid

I think those who have worked as usual throughout the last 15 months have a different mindset to those folks who are retired and have been able to stay home by choice.

Oh rats! The post I was quoting isn't quoted. Never mind - I hope my post stands on its own - the thread has moved on since I started typing anyway.

I'm singling out this post, but it's one among many that I find objectionable.

'Virtually anyone classed as vulnerable' does not mean that there are not lots of younger people who have not had a chance to get a second vaccine. It does not mean that children can't have their lives ruined (and where do ethicists who question the morality of vaccinating them stand on forcing them to go to school?). It does not cover the people who turn out to have been vulnerable for reasons other than the ones that have so far been identified, ie age and certain underlying conditions. Most asthmatics, for instance, are not identified as vulnerable, but the Asthma Society believes that many asthmatics really should be.

'A large percentage' is very vague, and by definition it is difficult to know how many people have very few symptoms. What about the people not in that high percentage? The ones who may well have given up a lot to protect the old, but who may go on to get Long Covid? And Long Covid is not just another post-viral syndrome - just as Covid19 is not just another virus. Doctors and virologists are only now understanding how it works. As has been said, it affects so many organs that it is, to use that hackneyed word, unprecedented.

Being 'delighted' that you (and by this I mean anyone who shares the delight of the quoted poster) are able to get out and about because you have been vaccinated shows no respect for the people who have restricted their lives in so many ways when you were vulnerable. Can't you just hang on until everyone has been double vaccinated and the Delta variant is not running rampant? It really comes across as an 'I'm alright, Jack' attitude.

Finally, to suggest that anyone who disagrees with you is doing so out of cowardice is invidious and not even logical. There are numerous reasons why people might disagree, not least of which is the principle that we should all be in this together and that the young deserve the same respect as the old.

I was reading a very worrying thread on twitter this morning by a 'T-Cell immunologist', who was basically saying that covid19 is not in the slightest 'like flu' because, unlike flu, it causes neurological changes in the brain that may have far reaching consequences. The implications for letting covid run through the child population on the grounds that 'it doesn't affect them badly', which seems to be the current strategy, are horrendous.

It is a difficult and very technical thread and I only hope that I have taken the right information from it. But I worry that we might be condemning school children to problems later in life if covid isn't checked.

twitter.com/fitterhappierAJ/status/1407143750032363530

Maybe someone with more knowledge in this area could comment on it?

Whitewave, do you not agree that vaccination for children should be proven safe for children before the license is given? Asking because you said you didn’t agree with the rest of my post.
Incidentally there are many children in this country who are not yet twelve years old. The USA are being cautious, quite rightly, in only lowering the age of vaccination to children of twelve or above. Children often react differently than adults to drugs or treatments. We cannot be too careful where children are concerned.

I don't think the percentage uptake of parents with kids under the age of 12 will be anywhere near sufficient to make much difference.
I agree maddyone there are several moral issues here, not least the patient giving consent or not.
I am not in favour of vaccinating any child under 12 years.

I don’t see vaccinating children as a vehicle for protecting the rest of society, more a vehicle to protect the children, so I can’t agree with the rest of your post.

Children in USA are being vaccinate at 12 years old for that very reason, and that is where I stand.

Maybee, you’re right, the rest of the world desperately needs vaccines, and the quicker the better. The whole world needs to be vaccinated in order to stop the spread and new variants. I don’t think that because people are happy to have more freedoms in Britain means they don’t care about other countries. We are all concerned about other countries and hoping for everyone to able to receive a vaccine.

Whitewave, you suggest vaccination for children, and I agree that would appear to be the answer long term. However, at the moment the vaccines are not licensed for children, and they will only be licensed when it can be shown that they are completely safe for them. There are certain moral issues about vaccinating the youngest members of society in order to protect others, and to curtail spread. It’s a tricky issue.

Whitewavemark2

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2 I will ask you again what do you suggest regarding children?

Keep them home forever (as Covid is not going away anytime soon)?

Vaccination

The vaccine has not been approved for under 16’s in the UK.

I trust the JCVI judgement on this, and there hesitancy to approve its use in younger people will have made many parents question whether or not they would vaccinate their children if/when it is rolled out to under 16’s.

Some people do appear to be fearful of returning to normal life don’t they? However my observations from Gransnet and ‘phone in’ programmes lead me to believe they are mainly in the older age group, and therefore they can choose to continue to shield at home if they feel more comfortable doing that.

Is anyone actually sparing a thought for people in poorer countries that are suffering terribly from another wave of the virus or is everyone just excited at the thought of their own lives getting back to ‘normal? Even Thailand has now got huge infection rates. And the U.K. has become the virus spreader of Europe because of the governments lack of foresight yet again.

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2 I will ask you again what do you suggest regarding children?

Keep them home forever (as Covid is not going away anytime soon)?

Vaccination

The fact still remains though that the vast majority of people who contract covid make a full recovery. In fact a large percentage have such a mild dose that they have no symptoms.

Virtually everyone classed as vulnerable has now been fully vaccinated, so I was delighted that the proposed date in July to lift all restrictions looks likely to happen.

There may be a small number of people who will remain fearful of returning to normal life but the rest of us can’t wait.

45,000 attending the England v Germany match at Wembley this afternoon, I wonder how many children will be there with parents?

To subject children to this is wrong.

I feel sorry for any child who suffers any illness, especially when it blights their education and social life. But isolating them in huge numbers at the drop of a hat is yet more detrimental. What do you suggest?

Whitewavemark2 I will ask you again what do you suggest regarding children?

Keep them home forever (as Covid is not going away anytime soon)?

MayBee70

People with ME have had little or no support over the years. I’m not holding my breath in the hope that people with long covid will get the help they need. And at the start of the pandemic doctors were saying covid was like no virus they’d ever come across before because it attacks so many parts of the body.

Absolutely. No one wants long covid /ME or whatever, and many more people are affected than one would normally expect.

To subject children to this is wrong.

People with ME have had little or no support over the years. I’m not holding my breath in the hope that people with long covid will get the help they need. And at the start of the pandemic doctors were saying covid was like no virus they’d ever come across before because it attacks so many parts of the body.

Ellianne

I think it has been been found that the small incidence of long covid in children requires only home-based care, not hospital admission. What it does require is follow ups and support in terms of managing their education.

That is what I understand, any virus can leave anyone regardless of age with post viral syndrome and on going support is needed.

I think it has been been found that the small incidence of long covid in children requires only home-based care, not hospital admission. What it does require is follow ups and support in terms of managing their education.

Whitewavemark2

So “irreversible Javid” suggests to me that the Tories are considering letting the virus have freedom to spread without hinderance in schools.

We know that children are largely unaffected by the virus, but many are and these children will go onto have long covid, a serious and debilitating affect and or be hospitalised, taking up staff, beds and money that could be usefully used to try to clear the biggest backlog the NHS has ever experienced, undoubtedly leading to more death, pain and illness by those who were not treated in time.

What do you suggest?

JCVI are not in favour of vaccinating under 16’s , currently only over 18’s are being vaccinated.

The Secretary of State for Education Gavin Williamson has announced that school bubbles will not be sent home to isolate if there is a positive test amongst them as from September.

There has always been post viral syndrome long before COVID-19 so long Covid is not a new phenomenon, just post viral syndrome with a new name.

Once all who can be vaccinated are we have to get back to normal.

So “irreversible Javid” suggests to me that the Tories are considering letting the virus have freedom to spread without hinderance in schools.

We know that children are largely unaffected by the virus, but many are and these children will go onto have long covid, a serious and debilitating affect and or be hospitalised, taking up staff, beds and money that could be usefully used to try to clear the biggest backlog the NHS has ever experienced, undoubtedly leading to more death, pain and illness by those who were not treated in time.

Very true Ellianne. Just shows we should not make assumptions based on backgrounds or anything else come to that.

25Avalon

Javid actually has working class roots. His dad was a bus driver in Bedminster in Bristol. Then they had a shop in Easton where a lot of Asians live. He went to an ordinary secondary school before going to Exeter University where he studied Economics and Politics before going into banking. He knows what it’s like to be poor but joined the Conservative party whilst at Exeter. The D of H doesn’t just cover the NHS. It is the Department of Health and Social Care.

You could have been talking about Sadiq Khan there Avalon25. Working roots, bus driver dad, Asian, ordinary school, university etc. Except the last bit. Khan joined the Labour Party and is centre left.
It just goes to show different people with extremely similar backgrounds can choose to have opposite political views.