New proposals for voter identification.

Savvy

Alegrias1 all of the UK immigration works the same way, they are given help to understand how to live here.

I have a 75-year old German friend who came to the UK when she was 17 and worked in the NHS all her life.

She has been in tears over the process of trying now to achieve settled status and the unreasonable demands of the government.

She had, just pre-Covid, to cancel a long-planned trip to see her grandchildren - within the country, not even abroad - because the government were not happy with the file she submitted and told her that, if she didn't resubmit within a week, she had to start the whole process all over again.

The documents that they were asking for were government-issued (one was proof of her NHS pension, for example) and were easily available with the click of a computer in the Home Office. In fact it would have been easier for them to obtain them internally than to write back and tell her to post them.

Stories like this are being repeated up and down the country; people are not given help to understand anything - obstacles are thrown in their way.

Victimisation? I presume you mean by me. I’ve shared your points to open them up to further discussion. How is that victimisation?

Alegrias1

At what point to we cross the line to victimisation, ridicule and personal attack?

I guess we'll see. I'll pull on my big girl pants and ride it out....

I dislike personal attacks, totally unnecessary.

Discuss the points and agree to disagree is what I aim for, if I fail I apologise wholeheartedly.

At what point to we cross the line to victimisation, ridicule and personal attack?

I guess we'll see. I'll pull on my big girl pants and ride it out....

I do like a good subject change, even if
it’s your best effort at sarcasm. It’s coffee break now and I just thought I’d let you know I’ve shared your posts with the wider world of work.

Alegrias!! My hub went down - it must have been embarrassed!
Reminds me of when dd did her football referee’s course and they wanted to know details of the ball. She omitted to tell them it is round whereas in rugby it is oval or spheroid.

I am tempted, 25Avalon, to ask about the shape of your balls...

Sorry Alegrias I couldn’t resist. Apparently there are now a load of people out there who believe the earth is flat and are trying to prove it - good luck to them! At least I didn’t say that.

The only season I am concerned with at the moment is the football season as a Club Secretary.

Alegrias1

Travellers.

People whose first language isn't English.

People who aren't sure they trust the government enough to ask them for an ID card.

People who are somehow disadvantaged and don't understand the necessity of getting a card or the rules about how to go about it.

Recent arrivals in this country who are entitled to vote but don't understand the system.

There's 5 groups, off the top of my head, without googling.

Doesn't matter if they are "ardent voters" or not. They certainly won't be ardent voters if we put barriers in their way.

Sorry to be picky…

Travellers? as they are travelling unless they have a fixed address which is on the electoral role they will not be registered to vote. Travellers, drive vans, four-by-fours to tow their homes etc ergo they will have driving licenses.

Our local Council and definitely London prints information leaflets in multiple languages for all sorts of things, public services, GP’s, hospitals etc. sorted!

People who are disadvantaged, there are so many agencies involved with disadvantaged families and the homeless, they have to be able to prove who they are to access the benefit system, obtain temporary housing I would have thought they know were the local Council offices are.

If recently arrived folks are allowed to vote, the clue is recently arrived they would have a passport, visas etc. Unless of course they were migrants/refugees in which case it will be a long time before voting is allowed in Council Elections, and as for General Elections you have to be a British Citizen and that takes time and money. By the time they have been dealing with all the red tape that this involves, popping along to the Council office will be easy as pie.

I am not dismissive of my of the people in the circumstances above, just pointing out that the problems areas you pointed out are in most circumstances not problems, nor are the insurmountable.

Don't need to. I know an oblate spheroid when I see one. You up for a chat on the regular precession of the orbital axis, or it that not covered on the front page of the NOAA website?

Actually the earth is not round. A more accurate description is an irregularly shaped ellipsoid but even that isn’t quite right as it changes shape. Look it up Alegrias if you don’t believe me - I know you will anyway.

Some people don't think I'm right that the world is round, either.

?

I’m not oblivious, I just don’t think you’re right.

I’m unconvinced by your reasoning.

I am surprised. Its a mystery to me how people can be so oblivious to the lives and travails of their fellow man. You live and learn I suppose.

So no. I can’t imagine any reasonable reason why getting a card is so unacceptable. I’m unconvinced by your reasoning.
I’m still waiting to find out which of my rights are being infringed by having to have proof of who I am.
I do understand that some people have reasons for not wanting to be obliged to get photo ID and I deal with some, who would object to having to get photo ID at the same time as they are willing to apply for a passport because it suits them.

But then you’re right. I don’t live the life where officials are going to burst into my house and demand proof of whether or not I have the right to be in the UK.
Perhaps if I lived that life, I’d want some ID to prove that I am allowed to be here.
If it entitled me to vote, so much the better.

? I don't care how you get there, get there if you can. ?

And if you can't its your own fault. Such empathy.

You don’t have to ‘pop’ along to the Council Offices, you could
Run there, walk there or skip there, but you can get there which is the main thing.?

Savvy

Alegrias1 all of the UK immigration works the same way, they are given help to understand how to live here.

Don't I know it.

England still isn't the UK though.

Alegrias1 all of the UK immigration works the same way, they are given help to understand how to live here.

I didn't get up this morning thinking that I was going to have to defend the privacy rights of every kind of person in the UK who might have concerns

So I'll pick one.

When you say you don't trust the government Mollygo, I assume the trust issue isn't that you think they are going to turn up in the middle of the night and cart you off, never to be seen again? Or that by having an ID card that you have to show at the time of polling, that they will be able to know how you voted and will keep that on file somewhere, for future use? Hard as it may be for some to believe, there are people who have this concern and they also have the right to vote; what earthly reason is there for putting more barriers in their way? There's none, nada, zilch.

I despair that there are people who don't have the imagination to understand that not everyone can just pop along to the council offices and get themselves a nice little Voter ID card. After all, its free. What possible problem could there be?

I'm also a little but concerned about the "if they don't understand about cards, they probably don't understand about voting" comments; are we back to MaizieD's thought experiment again?

By the way Savvy - England isn't the only nation we're talking about.

Alegrias1

Travellers.

People whose first language isn't English.

People who aren't sure they trust the government enough to ask them for an ID card.

People who are somehow disadvantaged and don't understand the necessity of getting a card or the rules about how to go about it.

Recent arrivals in this country who are entitled to vote but don't understand the system.

There's 5 groups, off the top of my head, without googling.

Doesn't matter if they are "ardent voters" or not. They certainly won't be ardent voters if we put barriers in their way.

Travelers: most have driving licenses which contain a photograph, they also have passports in some cases.

Recent arrivals and people whose first language isn't english: if they've just arrived here, they will either have passports (with a photograph) or will have been photographed by immigration as soon as they claimed asylum (this is routine and fingerprints are also taken.) FYI asylum seekers can't vote, if they are granted settled status, they will have photo ID. I had a friend who worked for border force, so I know this is right. They are given help to understand everything they need to know about England.

Lack of understanding: if you can't understand the system, I'm sure you will have support workers who will help you. You only have to speak to your local electoral office, they'll explain.

No trust in the government: these people won't be voting as a matter of course and are usually not on the electoral register.

So who are these people who don’t trust the government (and for what reason?) I don’t trust the government but I’d get a card.

The people whose first language is not English-actually better put as ‘don’t speak English’ as some people I deal with don’t have English as a first language-but speak it really well. Do they vote? Why would they not get a card?

People who are somehow disadvantaged and don’t understand the necessity to get a card or the rules about how to go about it. Do they currently vote? Do they understand how to vote. Do they understand the claims of political parties and how their vote impacts on the result. Possibly not, but those who want to vote ask help from families, friends and support.
Recent arrivals. Recent arrivals from where? Rather than say they don’t understand the system, put something in place so that they do. Having/ not having ID won’t make any difference to their understanding. Providing information on what the system requires is surely a better plan.
I’ve only worked with 2 travellers for any length of time and I never discussed voting with them. Why would they not want to get a photo ID?

GillT57

^For those voters who can’t be bothered to get a card, they are unlikely to bother to go out and vote anyway^.. Absolutely right, lemongrove, and they won't be Tory voters either will they? Now do you see?

If they can’t be bothered to vote then the chances are they have no political leanings one way or another.

Travellers.

People whose first language isn't English.

People who aren't sure they trust the government enough to ask them for an ID card.

People who are somehow disadvantaged and don't understand the necessity of getting a card or the rules about how to go about it.

Recent arrivals in this country who are entitled to vote but don't understand the system.

There's 5 groups, off the top of my head, without googling.

Doesn't matter if they are "ardent voters" or not. They certainly won't be ardent voters if we put barriers in their way.