New proposals for voter identification.

Sloegin

Photo ID has been required in this part of the UK, Northern Ireland, for many years now. When we moved back here from England, 21 years ago it seemed strange at first but people are very used to it and seem to like the fact that it prevents voter fraud. We can even use a bus pass. When I was young there were all sorts of stories about voter fraud, some very funny, but of course it is a serious crime. I believe there was a saying here - vote early, vote often!

As there was good evidence of serious voter fraud in NI the ID was necessary.

There is *no good evidence*for the rest of the UK. Why accept a limitation of your freedom and the exclusion of citizens from exercising their democratic right to vote when there is no good reason for it?

I have asked this question before; no answers have been forthcoming.

Maizie Posters haven’t misunderstood the main topic of the thread....they just don’t agree with your point of view.

Photo ID has been required in this part of the UK, Northern Ireland, for many years now. When we moved back here from England, 21 years ago it seemed strange at first but people are very used to it and seem to like the fact that it prevents voter fraud. We can even use a bus pass. When I was young there were all sorts of stories about voter fraud, some very funny, but of course it is a serious crime. I believe there was a saying here - vote early, vote often!

So long as I can get photo ID without needing a passport or driving licence then I am happy enough with the proposals. It would actually be really useful as I haven't driven in years and, due to my husband's disabilities, its highly unlikely we will ever be able to leave the country again.

Perhaps most of us just don’t want to live with the level of anger and hostility that some display on almost every subject. It’s very destructive mentally and bad for your physical health.

Some of us can see that an I.D. card would be useful and some are getting very agitated for no apparent reason.

I really don't take too kindly to people who don't give a monkeys about the state we're in giving me little lectures about my mental and physical health. Especially when they have misunderstood the main topic of this thread.

Perhaps most of us just don’t want to live with the level of anger and hostility that some display on almost every subject. It’s very destructive mentally and bad for your physical health.

I guess some are are passionate about our rights and some are happy for the government to walk all over them ?

Some of us can see that an I.D. card would be useful and some are getting very agitated for no apparent reason.

We are not talking about ID cards. The thread is not about ID cards.

We are talking about voter ID. There is no need for voter ID. It has dangers, which have been explained, for the democratic right of every UK citizen over the age of 18 to be able to vote in elections. This is what our far from perfect democracy is based on. Full adult suffrage.

I think some of us are getting agitated because other posters are displaying a very poor understanding of the importance of maintaining every eligible citizen's right to vote.

GillT57

Mollygo

None of their business? Sometimes, it just is.

When and why? It is highly unlikely I will be stopped anywhere, but I would think differently if I was black, young, 'alternative' perhaps. I am so exasperated that so many people are prepared to just roll over using the 'nothing to hide' defence.

Perhaps most of us just don’t want to live with the level of anger and hostility that some display on almost every subject. It’s very destructive mentally and bad for your physical health.

Some of us can see that an I.D. card would be useful and some are getting very agitated for no apparent reason.

The number of people who vote in UK is poor. We need to make it easier to vote, not harder.
I too have let my passport lapse, currently I happen to drive, but eventually I won't, as licence has to be renewed every ten years for everyone and every 3 years if over 70. (Check the expiry date on your licence!)

If the Electoral Commission don't think it's necessary, why would I?

(PS My last driving licence had a 25 year old signature on it! I couldn't have replicated that if you'd paid me)

So in every country that has ID for voting rights, it is a threat to their Democracy.

The biggest triumph for the government in this is making people think its simple; France (or whoever) do it, so why can't we?

In this country we have no tradition of identity cards for the whole population, at least not since the war. Therefore a significant proportion of people do not have photographic ID. About 3.5 million, which is about 7% of the adult population. I don't know who they are, but I venture to guess they are unlike you or me in some significant way; maybe they're not online, they don't have English as their first language, they are somehow disadvantaged. So telling them to get down to the Council Office and get their photo taken isn't going to hack it, I'm afraid.

Requiring them to get a photo ID essentially excludes them from voting, so that's bad for democracy.

Other countries, such as France, have a tradition of ID cards for everyone. You may think that's a good thing or a bad thing, but its something we don't have, and trying to impose it now will mean that people will be left on the side-lines. So while the country tries to implement a completely unnecessary system, people become disenfranchised.

So in every country that has ID for voting rights, it is a threat to their Democracy. So you are saying. Yes.

Trump tried to bring it in as a voter suppression measure and some Republican held states are doing their best.

The threat to democracy comes when voters who don't have voter ID (and you can be sure that a very significant number of people won't have it) are not allowed their democratic right to vote.

I really don't care what other countries do. There is no need for it in the UK as voter fraud is absolutely minimal. There have been several posts elaborating on this. Even the PM acknowledges that it is.

So why do we need voter ID if there is a nonexistent problem? "Well, there might be" is not a good enough reason.

Alegrias1

We've had this debate on here before. That's not a criticism, because its so important and we should talk about it a lot.

So, here's my prediction for what will happen.

People will come along and tell us that other countries do it, that most people have photo id anyway, that its a real problem that we have to put a stop to and - best of all - if you've nothing to hide you've nothing to fear.

I do wonder if there will be an overlap between the people who wanted us to take back control and those who want to control who gets to vote.

In answer to your question GillT57, yes its a threat to democracy. What can we do about it?

So in every country that has ID for voting rights, it is a threat to their Democracy. So you are saying. Yes.

Evidence that people get arrested for wearing badges. I’ve never asked for evidence before on GN. Please don’t let me down.

With respect Mollygo, I think you're missing the point. It was an illustrative example.

Evidence that people get arrested for wearing badges?

Voter impersonation is practically nonexistent in the UK. I suspect both voter suppression + bringing in ID cards through the back door.
If you turn up to bote and someone else has already said they're you, a 'tendered' vote can be cast while checks ate cartied out.

MaggsMcG

Alegrias1

A benefit for those without a passport or a driving license they will now have some photographic ID

Why do they need one? My mum's lasted 83 years without one, why start now?

Because eventually everything you want to do will require an ID card. The amount of times I've has to do it in the last 6 months for probate or banks or utilities shows me that.

There have been a few posts today about why Voter ID isn't the same as a bus pass, I hope you read them and see what the difference is.

I've been thinking today what I'll do if I have to provide photo ID the next time I vote. Civil disobedience is on the cards, I think.

Alegrias1

^A benefit for those without a passport or a driving license they will now have some photographic ID^

Why do they need one? My mum's lasted 83 years without one, why start now?

Because eventually everything you want to do will require an ID card. The amount of times I've has to do it in the last 6 months for probate or banks or utilities shows me that.

Because it gives the police a valid reason for stopping them - to ask for ID. And they should give a reason if they want to stop and search someone but unfortunately they can say what they like and who's going to believe the (possibly) innocent victim.

I originally mentioned stop and search on here because I think that voter fraud is almost non - existent and I do think that the govt's reasons are insidious.

Sorry to post this on the voting ID thread, but that’s where your post is.
GillT57- from what I know, the ‘black, young, ‘alternative’ groups who are getting stopped more frequently anyway.
I don’t agree with stopping them for just the being black, young or ‘alternative’ reason, but how would an ID card make it worse?

Mollygo

I hadn’t realised that this was only the voter ID thread. Mea culpa for that.
If you’re walking down the street wearing any badge and the policeman thinks you’re looking for trouble, you could still be arrested, taking to the police station, fingerprinted etc. with or without ID. If that happened, would you claim to be someone else?

No, but you can bet I'd be suing them quick as you like. You don't get to arrest people for walking down the street in this country, even if you don't like their badges.

Dinahmo

If they knew what your badge represented they might well stop you

I hadn’t realised that this was only the voter ID thread. Mea culpa for that.
If you’re walking down the street wearing any badge and the policeman thinks you’re looking for trouble, you could still be arrested, taking to the police station, fingerprinted etc. with or without ID. If that happened, would you claim to be someone else?

GrannyGravy13

Alegrias1 this is a voter ID card for voting, we are not being asked to carry identification with us at all times.

I do not have a photo driving license, just the old paper one, the only form of photo ID I have is my passport, when it is sent away for renewal I am left with no photo ID.

I believe the voting system is rather different in Scotland?

Yes I know that GG13 but I think the two things were getting talked about as though they were the same thing. So you can just read my first post

I'm not sure about the voting system being "different" in Scotland but from what I can gather the Bill covers the whole UK. I expect that's why Ian Blackford was a bit irate about it.