“Mixed” hospital wards - thought we’d seen the last of these

trisher

It seems to me to be quite reasonable to ask the question. Are women being silenced? Helen Joyce has her book published. JK Rowling continues to make millions. Both want to tell you you are being silenced, does that make it true? Since when has it been unreasonable to ask a question?

This is not the same question you asked earlier.

Never mind. As FarNorth says, you are going round in circles. The point, as Allsorts says, is that women are not being consulted about what we think or want, and the assumption is that the needs of men trump ours.

trisher you are arguing in circles about nothing.
There is no evidence that anyone on here needed to read a particular book in order to form their view.

There is evidence that NHS trusts told staff to persuade women patients that men, in female wards, are also women.
Any women patients who complained were, in effect, to be told to shut up.

Those women, of course, are much less noticeable than JK Rowling so maybe you think they don't count.

Doesn’t any one care what women think or want. I don’t want mixed wards or toilets, just as I wouldn’t want my brother or father there. I find men who dress as women, but have a muscly build and look like men scary.

It seems to me to be quite reasonable to ask the question. Are women being silenced? Helen Joyce has her book published. JK Rowling continues to make millions. Both want to tell you you are being silenced, does that make it true? Since when has it been unreasonable to ask a question?

What's that got to do with the nonsense about if you need to be told something it can't be true?

It may be the case that HJ has been accused of bias, but that doesn't mean she is guilty, surely? FWIW, I am reserving judgement on that, as I haven't read the book either - I knew that there were attempts to silence women before I'd even heard of it, so I didn't need her to tell me. Does that make it true?

Opinion is fine misrepresentation and bias isn't and Helen Joyce has been accused of both.

FarNorth

trisher you said If you need Helen Joyce to tell you you are being silenced can it really be true?

That seemed a ridiculous comment because there's no reason to think anyone on this thread has needed to read this book before forming their view.

It's also a nonsensical sentence. Of course it is possible that someone might need to be told something that is true. Saying that the Earth is Round is true, and if a Flat-Earther converts as a result of reading a book, it would remain true, just as it remains true if they obstinately refuse to read anything that might contradict their beliefs.

Truth is not dependent on whether someone tells you about it or not. It just 'is'. Many 'truths' are open to interpretation, of course, and this is where reading the opinions of others comes in useful.

trisher you said If you need Helen Joyce to tell you you are being silenced can it really be true?

That seemed a ridiculous comment because there's no reason to think anyone on this thread has needed to read this book before forming their view.

My experience in a women's ward in 2002 was that there was inadequate supervision of who was present in the ward, day and night.

There was unrestricted visiting at all times. I went to the ward toilet and wash room at 11PM and encountered another patient's husband there.

The fact they were short staffed should have meant there was more (not less ) supervision and stricter rules, for the safety and well being of the patients. To this day I do not know whether the ward sister or the hospital administration failed.

Stormystar But for me when transgender women are using an anti nausea drug Domperidone to induce lactation so they can ‘chest feed’ a new born baby: a drug which is banned in the US because it poses heart risks . When we allow this we are supporting unspeakable child abuse with unknowable consequences. So sexual fantasies can be satiated.
Some adoptive mothers take galactagogues so they can breast feed are they child abusers as well?

You still don’t need to read it.

Mollygo publications like The Economist who HJ works for do not sensationalise. She tweeted a misleading and sensationalist inaccuracy in order to try upping the circulation. She had to withdraw it. She was condemned by a press watchdog. which pointed out that good journalism requires accurate and objective reporting with referencable sources.

No need to buy it, no need for you to read it. If you already don’t believe what you might read in a publication, no matter who wrote it, then reading it would be inutile. All newspapers use sensational headlines to sell their editions, so that saves you another task.

No I'm not buying any book by someone who has used sensationalism to sell news publications.

Have you read it trisher?

FarNorth if it was a book about male abuse, not entitled "Trans" as if the entire transcommunity is somehow a threat to women I might agree with you. If Helen Joyce had not used Twitter to sensationalise and misinform I might agree with you. As it is I reserve the right to consider someone who uses sensationalism and inaccurate information to sell print and stir up antagonism as a poor jornalist on the make.

trisher that's a ridiculous comment re Helen Joyce.
As if we've all started getting upset since her book came out (which I haven't read, btw).

However, I have read Trans Britain - Our Journey from the Shadows, edited by transwoman Christine Burns, which is very informative.

I am not aware of transmen campaigning to be in the male estate for example, however I cant claim to know statistics on relation to that.

I did hear Rhona Hotchkiss, former prison governor, say at one time that there was one transman housed in female prison while those claiming to be transwomen, if they were all housed in the female estate, would be 7% of the population there - far higher than the proportion of genuine trans people in the general population.
(They were not all housed in the female estate at the time.)

No Trisha I don’t Need Helen Joyce to inform me, I’m sighnposting a very informative courageous intelligent important work, rooted in good science and common sense- in the words of Jenni Murray. And when I’m being told by a mysogenistic minority to identify as a cis woman, when a trans women’s penis is described as an outie vagina I can appreciate some people are ok with this,. But for me when transgender women are using an anti nausea drug Domperidone to induce lactation so they can ‘chest feed’ a new born baby: a drug which is banned in the US because it poses heart risks . When we allow this we are supporting unspeakable child abuse with unknowable consequences. So sexual fantasies can be satiated.

Deedaa

I notice that nobody is mentioning women who transition. Are we pretending they don't exist or is it all right for them to be treated on male wards? I suspect they might have a hard time there with the sort of men who would see them as available females. Perhaps we just need more private rooms for people who are outside the norm.

I think that transmen are less of an issue for the same reasons as I think that transwomen can present a threat to women. It's a generalisation, as are all statements on subjects like this, but on the whole women are not going to have the size and strength advantages over men that happens the other way round. A transman who has transitioned is unlikely to be seen as an available female. An untransitioned transman might be better off on a female ward if they feel threatened on a male one.

It's tricky - as long as we see self-ID (whether or not it is a legal status) as immutable there will be people who will use it to get a private room, or to suit their ends in other ways.

Private rooms all round would be ideal, IMO; but I know that some nursing staff are not in favour as they are less easy to monitor from a safety point of view.

Kali2

I have a good friend who is trans - and has had a full reversal from male to female, 11 years ago. Would you object to her being in a women only bay? Sadly because she did this quite late in life, most people guess when they meet her. Very tall, big hands, Adam's apple and deep voice.

I don't think that your friend would cause me a problem, Kali, because she has fully transitioned. I don't see why people should assume that she would be a danger to other women.

But everything has changed since the insistence on self ID. Which we know is being used by some unscrupulous men to prey on women and so poses dangers to women that fully transitioned former men didn't.

I would think they would also be at risk on Male wards, in fact I am aware of some horrific incidents of assault (not on a ward) by men towards transmen. No one is ignoring transmen, certainly in terms of prison I am not aware of transmen campaigning to be in the male estate for example, however I cant claim to know statistics on relation to that.

Kali2, IMO (and I know others will disagree), the fact that your friend has fully transitioned means that she will not be a threat to other women (any more than any person might be).

For one thing she has shown that her gender identity is permanent, so is clearly and obviously not identifying as a woman for nefarious purposes, which is a risk (*not a given*) in some cases. For another, she will have had to take female hormones and whilst they may not have eradicated her male features I think her case is very different from having an intact male in the next bed.

I can see that it might be disconcerting for someone to have a male-appearing person sleeping next to them in hospital, but if she has transitioned then she is a woman. Not female, IMO, but I think she is better placed in a female ward than a male one.

Sadly, the fact that the TRA have behaved in such an extreme way means that people like your friend will meet with more fear and prejudice than may have been the case previously.

I notice that nobody is mentioning women who transition. Are we pretending they don't exist or is it all right for them to be treated on male wards? I suspect they might have a hard time there with the sort of men who would see them as available females. Perhaps we just need more private rooms for people who are outside the norm.

trisher @ 8.57 Oh no, of course we shouldn’t believe a journalist who will have had her research thoroughly checked, or people like Baroness Jenkin who has actually spoken with some of those affected. We can’t believe any of those women who have been cancelled for speaking of the existing and imminent dangers.
Shocking that Helen Joyce used attention grabbing headlines. Do you believe she really should have posted her concerns only on the back pages of a rural newspaper to make women aware of the erosion of their rights that is insidiously creeping in, promoted by a patriarchy and, sadly, some women, who may well be dead before the full impact is felt so aren’t worried?