So many dreams for our youngsters dashed.

I voted remain too, but I’m not going to spend the rest of my life in mourning. I’ve got better things to do than trying to convince everyone who voted leave that they are too stupid to understand what they have done. I accept that things have changed.

PippaZ

foxie48

MaizieD I don't have a lack of understanding of what we have lost by leaving the EU, I just refuse to spend the rest of my life moaning about it because I can't change it. I voted Remain but I lost. End of story!

If that's your choice it's fine. No one is going to stop you thinking that way. But equally, I hope you would not stop others having their opinion. Mine is that Remain lost because it was an undemocratic even an anti-democratic vote so, for me, it is not the end of the story.

I am totally supportive of people having their own opinion but I do object to being told that my opinion is because I don't understand what we have lost, I just choose to deal with it differently.

foxie48

MaizieD I don't have a lack of understanding of what we have lost by leaving the EU, I just refuse to spend the rest of my life moaning about it because I can't change it. I voted Remain but I lost. End of story!

If that's your choice it's fine. No one is going to stop you thinking that way. But equally, I hope you would not stop others having their opinion. Mine is that Remain lost because it was an undemocratic even an anti-democratic vote so, for me, it is not the end of the story.

MaizieD

^Isn't this evidence of the divide though?^

I think it's evidence of a lack of understanding of how very closely integrated with the other EU member states we had become at a personal level. It's not just about gap year or holiday jobs; to assume that it is reveals a certain narrowness of thought, but about opportunities for life.

Opportunities to work seamlessly between two or more EU states, either travelling between them or settling in one, for a whole career. Opportunities to start small businesses to trade seamlessly with 27 other nations, opportunities to develop relationships with other EU nationals and be confident of their right to live in each other's country.

What was so wrong with all that that it had to be taken away?

What have we gained from it?

Listen to these Europeans, albeit from 2017, trading nations good, rules, regulations, awful people as Verhofstadt, Barnier, and that woman Von Leydun, parachuted in, belittled abused and denigrated this country. This a view from people in mainland Europe.Love European countries, but not the EU, becoming too Federalistic for my liking.
www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/25/nice-idea-but-europeans-on-what-went-wrong-eu

Well yes that’s fine but many want to be in Europe! It’s closer for a start. It’s the fact that choice has been removed.

I understand that, although clearly choice has not been removed, it’s simply a bit more complicated now. I was simply making the point that very many young people do not want to go to Europe as it is regarded as too similar to the UK. Young people tend to go to Australia, South America, and The Far East for their travels these days. If young people can travel to other continents and work there, it cannot be beyond their wit to travel to Europe either. It is surely more difficult and complicated to travel and work in Cambodia or Peru than to France. We should not put young people down. If they want to work in Europe then they will sort it out and work in Europe.

1996. A key objective for the National Curriculum was to raise this towards 100%. Significant progress was made after MFL in KS4 became compulsory in 1996

Languages have not been compulsory in England beyond the age of 14 since 2004. Ofsted has noted the number of entries for GCSEs in modern foreign languages (MFL) has “declined significantly” since that time

Oh, and Foxie - I don't know why you think people are moaning!
I'm not.

I agree.. if IS sad that opportunities for our grand-children are being dashed like this.

But can I just reiterate that the idea of a summer job in Ibiza may not be as "educational" as a year studying in Florence but it is still an adventure. Because of the work situation, these very "ordinary" jobs will not be available.

I had a great job and happy time working summers in a holiday area in Wales. I made good friends there and returned year after year. I started doing this very young (13?) and if I hadn't been well settled in I really can see the appeal of Europe and the opportunity to get to experience somewhere quite different without the costs of getting to Cambodia (or wherever).

My son in law and friend both did "menial" jobs in Europe, travelling and camping, and sofa surfing with new work mates.

Yes. It's a big loss I feel.

MaizieD I don't have a lack of understanding of what we have lost by leaving the EU, I just refuse to spend the rest of my life moaning about it because I can't change it. I voted Remain but I lost. End of story!

Maw “ This has in some areas been compounded by the increasing numbers of “native speaker” candidates and because of this the calculations for setting grade boundaries are skewed to the detriment of non-native speakers. ”. Very true! I experienced this effect teaching a level Italian ! And I agree with your point about MFL provision. I meet so many people who say they wishes they had tried harder with languages at school!
But some young people learnt the language just by going and living abroad.

JaneJudge you may find this interesting
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-47293927

MawBe but what is meant by
Language learning at secondary school level has been woeful for too many years, long before and entirely unconnected with Brexit. ,?
Obvious enough. The curriculum in England has become increasingly narrow and too often “options ” for GCSE will put languages and eg double science in opposition.
A language at GCSE is no longer compulsory - has not been for some years, I think that happened under Tony Blair.
MFL is perceived as a “hard” subject compared to other subjects so schools, ever eager to feature in the League tables will discourage students from exams where A and A* are harder to achieve. This has in some areas been compounded by the increasing numbers of “native speaker” candidates and because of this the calculations for setting grade boundaries are skewed to the detriment of non-native speakers.
It is virtually impossible to run an A level course with small classes as staffing is an issue, so with fewer than 12 students in a large (1200+ comprehensive) I would find second foreign language courses impossible to run even for keen and bright students who also wanted to study Maths or Science.
I could write a book on this- both from the timetabling perspective and that of the exam boards.

What have we gained from it? [Thu 05-Aug-21 12:43:25]

Maisie there were good people who thought we would all benefit. I would see them as misguided but they were entitled to that opinion. But we see more, many more, who just seem to want to bring everyone down. No matter that they will not do as well as they might have or that fewer of the younger generation will do as well as they would have otherwise. They just seem to want to hold people down to where they see themselves. I have a feeling “Gap Yah” [Thu 05-Aug-21 12:00:43] sums up the reasons for many of the votes for leave. That and the power they felt they had.

Language learning at secondary school level has been woeful for too many years, long before and entirely unconnected with Brexit,?

I have to agree with that. For too long many secondary schools offered only French, occasionally German as well.
It is not good here either as Welsh is compulsory up to GCSE level, French is taught but not compulsory for GCSE and the curriculum leaves little time for other languages which might have more universal appeal eg Spanish, Mandarin.

Apart from in Wales and Patagonia, Welsh is of very limited use at all although it should not be allowed to die out completely.

Going back in the thread, as far as pilots are concerned, there are many pilots in the EU and the UK who are unemployed because there are few career opportunities for them after qualifying. Spain, for instance, has a 20% unemployment rate for pilots.
It may seem an exciting career choice but surely young people should be encouraged to look at other career paths where there is a gap in the market?

MawBe

MaizieD

Hurdles there might well be, but they are not insurmountable.

We know that the 'hurdles' aren't insurmountable. We're just angry that they are there at all after so many years of their complete absence.

I would never agree with “complete absence”.
Language learning at secondary school level has been woeful for too many years, long before and entirely unconnected with Brexit, putting many young people at a disadvantage vis-a-vis their European counterparts who nearly always have a second or third language, whether or not that is their chosen area of study.
We have many foreign companies in and around MK and company policy is to require two languages (their own plus one) for progression to the high levels. I taught many students of French, German, Dutch, Indian and Japanese parents who also spoke excellent English. Our narrow system of choices at Secondary level, invariably discriminates against those who may wish go on to study science or engineering as two languages at GCSE level or even one language at A level does not fit into the curriculum.

Sorry MawBe but what is meant by
Language learning at secondary school level has been woeful for too many years, long before and entirely unconnected with Brexit,?

Beckett

I would say the majority of GNs didn't have the opportunity to work abroad - were their "hopes dashed"? We somehow managed to fulfill our dreams and make good lives for ourselves.

It became the norm for young people to have a "gap year" to go "find themselves" now they can still work abroad they just have to show they have the skills required by that country - it may lead to less young people believing they are entitled to have and do whatever they want.

I'm assuming you are in favour of Brexit Beckett. I am also assuming you think this is an argument setting out good reasons for us being excluded from all the membership benefits we had.

It isn't. It just sounds bitter. Do you really not want the next generation to do better than the last?

My last post seems to have disappeared.
Given that I was treated like a daughter, I think my French job was indeed technically “au pair” in the true sense of the term
The title comes from the French term au pair, meaning "at par" or "equal to", indicating that the relationship is intended to be one of equals: the au pair is intended to become a member of the family, albeit a temporary one, rather than a traditional domestic worker

Madame was the second wife (widow) of an immensely rich owner of one of the big biscuit manufacturers and his grown up family hated and looked down on her. I felt very sorry or her and although she had diamonds like pigeons eggs, she was lonely .
To answer your question, I think she sounded the “g” although “pute” featured more -especially behind the wheel of her very smart car!
We got along very well once I had established I couldn’t cook, so we ate out every day and with all the booze in the evenings, hot chocolate to keep out the Dauphinoise cold and the meals out I had a very jolly time - enlarging my vocabulary as well as my waistline!

There aren't the same language opportunities in America or Australia either

maddyone

My three adult children all travelled abroad to work and enjoy other countries in their late teens/early twenties. Only one travelled to France (a country he had visited many times with us for holidays) and that was because he was doing his degree in French. Before university he chose to travel to Australia, Fiji and Hawaii, not the EU. My second son chose to live and work in Sri Lanka for two years. My daughter did her elective in The Philippines. They all wanted to experience a different culture, rather than the European culture.

Well yes that’s fine but many want to be inEurope ! It’s closer for a start It’s the fact that choice has been removed

Corny as hell- but good fun.

youtu.be/Cr3CRzxIDt8

Bill Nighy, yes.

Au Pair jobs have very specific rules and very specific descriptions of what is allowed or not. So in the cases you describe, at least the second one was not an Au Pair post.

But glad to hear you learnt some interesting language and expressions. The name Frejus still sends shivers down my spine- due to the 1956 dam disaster.

Did she say 'put*in' with the 'g' added or not?

Never heard of “Chalet Girl”, Kali2 ( do you mean Bill Nighy? )

My au pair jobs were far from typical -one certainly involved children, but also allowed me to take one of the ponies and spend my afternoon off riding off on my own through the Stadtwald around Stuttgart with just a “Lassie” type dog for company.
The other was with a lonely and still grieving middle aged widow near Fréjus - no children, but a spoilt little terrier dog and my job was to pander to “Madame’s” every whim , accompany her to her chalet in the Alps where I froze, having prepared for a summer on the Côte d’Azur , keep her company on shoe buying trips to N Italy, walk the pooch and drink with her throughout the (interminable) Alpine evenings!
Interesting and as “Madame” had driven lorries in WWII, taught me some choice vocabulary I would not have picked up from children.

And that is just great. It's good to have the choice.

My three adult children all travelled abroad to work and enjoy other countries in their late teens/early twenties. Only one travelled to France (a country he had visited many times with us for holidays) and that was because he was doing his degree in French. Before university he chose to travel to Australia, Fiji and Hawaii, not the EU. My second son chose to live and work in Sri Lanka for two years. My daughter did her elective in The Philippines. They all wanted to experience a different culture, rather than the European culture.