So many dreams for our youngsters dashed.

Are you a textile print designer NotSpaghetti? You are right btw

Good post Notspaghetti

I don't understand why there's a lack of acceptance that ease of doing things in Europe (anything really) has gone.

As far as I'm concerned, opportunities have diminished.
It's still possible to do things in/with Europe, just harder.

Even taking a piece of work to an exhibition in Paris is harder - and now, very expensive. The attitude to samples has also changed. Lots of little niche areas have become problematic. This impacts our children and grandchildren and yes, the youngest won't know anything else - but it's putting the clocks back and seems wrong.
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Welshwife

It is not always straightforward to get a working visa for USA unless you are working in an industry which finds certain skills difficult to find in the USA population and you can supply those skills.
I don’t know what the working visas are like to get in Italy but before Brexit they would not have been needed.

I think this will be the situation in Europe now. Certainly, it was the situation in Europe for those from non European countries 3 years ago, because I benefitted from it, job-wise.

Amalegra

There are other places to explore snd work other than Europe, in the travel industry as well as the professions. My nephew travelled snd worked in Australia and New Zealand and worked all over the USA before deciding to settle in California. My son has similar ambitions. My brother in law has worked all over the Middle East as did my ex husband years ago. The whole world is shrinking and is there to explore!

But what if you prefer to be in the wonderful variety of European countries ? Just forget about Europe ?

It is not always straightforward to get a working visa for USA unless you are working in an industry which finds certain skills difficult to find in the USA population and you can supply those skills.
I don’t know what the working visas are like to get in Italy but before Brexit they would not have been needed.

Amalegra

There are other places to explore snd work other than Europe, in the travel industry as well as the professions. My nephew travelled snd worked in Australia and New Zealand and worked all over the USA before deciding to settle in California. My son has similar ambitions. My brother in law has worked all over the Middle East as did my ex husband years ago. The whole world is shrinking and is there to explore!

But he could have done that when the UK was in the EU. The fact is that opportunities have been reduced.

There are other places to explore snd work other than Europe, in the travel industry as well as the professions. My nephew travelled snd worked in Australia and New Zealand and worked all over the USA before deciding to settle in California. My son has similar ambitions. My brother in law has worked all over the Middle East as did my ex husband years ago. The whole world is shrinking and is there to explore!

I think many of those who voted 'remain' look back to being in the EU as some kind of paradise.

I don't think so either, Alegrias

I think many of those who voted 'remain' look back to being in the EU as some kind of paradise.

I don't think that's true at all. It's not the remain voters who have a skewed view of the world.

growstuff

Maizie That was the problem. Valid arguments were put forward by Leave campaigners, but those campaigning to remain didn't counter them.

There's a persistent narrative amongst some people that rules/laws/regulations are imposed without any input. It happens with Westminster - and there's much truth in that too. Concepts such as "democracy" and "will of the people" aren't nearly so simple as they might seem to those only used to soundbites. The majority of people don't have any meaningful say in how they're governed and that idea was transferred to the EU. Very often it takes more than rational argument to counter ingrained beliefs. Dominic Cummings knew that very well. I think it's been removed from YouTube now, but he gave a speech not long after the result, explaining how Leave used visceral rather than intellectual arguments. He was right.

Another valid argument was about EU workers undercutting tradespeople and taking unskilled jobs. Agencies were employing EU workers and bypassing UK workplace laws. The UK government could have stamped on that but it didn't. The counter-argument should have been that few people want to do the unskilled jobs anyway - which is what we're now seeing. Generally, the UK has a comparatively highly educated workforce and people aren't prepared to do backbreaking work for peanuts. It makes economic sense for the UK to concentrate on "intellectual" work, but of course that means that there is still "menial" work to be done. For too long, policy makers have ignored those destined to be at the bottom of the pile. They had an opportunity to make their voices heard - and they did.

The Leave campaign was very clever at uniting diverse groups of people with grievances.

Good post

I think many of those who voted 'remain' look back to being in the EU as some kind of paradise.

I was and remain a remainer, but I also know that the EU is cumbrous, bureaucratic, and, as COVID has shown, has the manouvrability of a large seagoing oil tanker. However, warts and all, I still think we were bettter in it than out.

NotSpaghetti

MaizieD - if I hadn't felt so convinced that leaving the EU would cause long term and far-reaching problems I would have voted "leave" because of the dreadful pompous Cameron who needed a swift bop on the nose in my opinion!
It was very tempting

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That was a sort of grim moment of pleasure on 24/6/16. At least Cameron's a goner!
Little did I guess what worse horrors lay in wait for us...

MerylStreep

I’m just watching a young man on tv talking about the problems he’s having ( covid related) in relation to getting to his teaching job in Italy. He’s mentioned in passing his friends who are going to teach in Sweden and Denmark.
I think that’s a wonderful example of our children taking advantage of social mobility
And they said it couldn’t be done. Well this young man proves them wrong.

1) Going to work in another country isn't social mobility. Social mobility is moving through the socioeconomic groupings in one's own country.

2) No-one has ever said that working in another country 'couldn't be done'. They've just pointed out that ending Free Movement has made it more complex and expensive. Why Leavers think that this should be joyfully accepted is one of life's mysteries.

Moving to another country to work isn't any kind of social mobility, its just moving to another country to work.

That is sideways social mobility. Up and down social mobility is something different.

It would be nice if no-one earned less than the average wage (as a union officer once aske) for, but unfortunately that is a contradiction in terms.

MaizieD - if I hadn't felt so convinced that leaving the EU would cause long term and far-reaching problems I would have voted "leave" because of the dreadful pompous Cameron who needed a swift bop on the nose in my opinion!
It was very tempting

I’m just watching a young man on tv talking about the problems he’s having ( covid related) in relation to getting to his teaching job in Italy. He’s mentioned in passing his friends who are going to teach in Sweden and Denmark.
I think that’s a wonderful example of our children taking advantage of social mobility
And they said it couldn’t be done. Well this young man proves them wrong.

The concept of social mobility annoys me, so much so that I could write an essay about it. It's a bit of a catchphrase, linked to the idea of meritocracy, and a con.

Across the board, there has been a trend towards upwards social mobility, but that's stalling now. No politician is ever gong to push an agenda of downward social mobility, which is what the UK is probably about to experience. People will still hang on to grab all the crumbs they can - and some will end up getting richer than ever at others' expense. The "alright Jacks" will be OK and carry on claiming that they've earned what they've got.

growstuff Yes, but. The talk now is all about social mobility not better standards of living. and social mobility is always talked of in terms of upwards mobility, but social mobility is live a lava lamp as one part rises, another part goes up It is the group with downward social mobility who are never mentioned.

Maizie I think the simple answer is that the Leave campaigners had a better understanding of how to manipulate public opinion. It was actually a nihilistic campaign and stirred up lots of grievances. People always hope the grass will be greener.

MOnica Because, over the last few decades since the end of WW2, society has on average become wealthier and everybody wants to think they can be part of that. Nobody aims to be less well off than their parents.

No, I don't think you were wrong. There's something a little strange going on with political party alignment. It's no longer to do with traditional left or right views. Social views, which cut across political boundaries, are probably as important as anything. I think a significant factor was not feeling in control of decision-making and believing empty promises.

Maizie That was the problem. Valid arguments were put forward by Leave campaigners, but those campaigning to remain didn't counter them.

I was really more commenting on the fact that two opposing ideas, we have no say v there's too much say were rationales for a leave vote.

I've always contended that a significant factor in the Leave vote up here was just sticking one over the hated tories. But as we've turned blue now maybe I was wrong .

Shortly after we voted for Brexit an Act went through Parliament incorporating almost all EU legislation into British legislation. Much of it was on topics, where, had we not been in the EU we would anyway have legislated on the subjecton very similar lines

Slghtly off target, why is social mobility always talked of as an upwards movement, what happens when we have all worked our way to whatever level of social mobility is considered acceptable, won't there still be some spread of how far up the greasy pole people have got and even if we are all socially mobile upwards, some will always be less socially mobile than others - and what about those who are socially mobile downwards? I think all of us know families where one or two members, for some reason or another have far lower social status than their parents.