Animals don’t belong in the Olympics

There are so many experts on this thread who have zero experience or practical knowledge of the equine world, but obviously they know far more than those who ride/own their own horses…

Kali2 we have had rescue horses and ponies along with buying a two year old and our DD backing him from scratch.

'There are none so blind as those who cannot see'. Humans volunteer for the Olympics - animals do not.

Ok, they can be trained to tolerate transportation, unnatural movements, carrying the weight of the rider, overcoming their prey reactions etc. - but yes, of course it's cruel. They'd be far happier in a natural environment, of course. We treat most animals unkindly - despite our best intentions.

foxie48 our Arab mare much preferred walking on her two hind legs to all four, regardless of whether she had a passenger always entered the collecting ring on hind legs, but got on with the job when needed.

Regarding spurs they are not what you see in Western Films they are a small rounded nub nothing sharp or pointed.

That is it in a nutshell for me ''Horses are sensitive reactive animals '' all animals are.

You never own them, and you share their lives on their terms. Never had a puppy or a kitten- all rescues. Trained them to be happier, more sociable and to make their life easier and more joyful.

LondonMzFitz

PippaZ

LondonMzFitz [Mon 09-Aug-21 12:03:14]

I don't ride, never have and have nothing to do with horses. But I'm allowed an opinion, surely?

You are right. No one can stop you from having an opinion. But if it is an uneducated one - as you tell us it is - please don't expect anyone to think it is equal to facts or life experience.

I read through the thread looking to be informed - to be educated, thank you.

There are several posts that support the use of horses for the Olympics but I've not changed my opinion that I am uncomfortable with it.

Are we only allowed to comment on subjects where we have first hand knowledge now PippaZ?

I refer you to my previous answer.

vegansrock

The Spanish Riding School in Vienna put on extreme circus type shows of dressage. Riders have whips and spurs and the trainer has a long whip, the horses are made to dance on their back legs walking backwards and sideways, very exaggerated movements. Horses have to do 3 shows a day. If that’s not unnatural treatment I don’t know what is. There is documented evidence of cruelty involved in their training.

You can describe it as an "extreme circus type show" but I doubt many equestrians would agree with you and it is there that the problem lies. Really there is no point in discussing i t further so the rest of my post is for anyone who wants to know a bit more about dressage.
Whips and spurs are not used for punishing the horse, they are there to refine the leg aids and control the hind quarters. The word "dressage" just means training, all horses do some level of dressage before they can be ridden and it is usually started on the ground. All horses can walk on two legs, if you watch videos of stallions in the wild you will see them doing this. The "airs above the ground" performed by the Spanish riding school (levade, capriole etc) are not part of modern dressage, they take years of training to perform. They are not to my particular taste as I prefer my horses to stay on four feet not two but they do not involve any cruelty, neither are they unnatural but they do need the horse to be very strong and balanced. I think it's of note that these stallions are still working into their 20's whilst many leisure horses are retired to the field or being used as light hacks at that age! A testament to their care, training and careful breeding.
I don't know anything about "documented evidence of cruelty" but if a person thinks a long whip is used to beat the horse (whilst I know it is not) I think I might interpret this "evidence" differently.
There are cruel people in all walks of life and equestrianism is not immune but the vast majority of horse owners are kind and caring, dressage is not easy for people to understand but if a horse looks stressed and tense then it is not a happy athlete and in competition it will be marked down. Horses are sensitive reactive animals and it takes careful training to get them used to competing and frankly if they don't like it, then they are not suitable for competitions and I've had one like that so I stopped taking him out.
Sorry if I've been preachy, but I love my horses, love my sport and find it hard to ignore comments which IMV are completely wrong. Have a good day!

The Spanish Riding School in Vienna put on extreme circus type shows of dressage. Riders have whips and spurs and the trainer has a long whip, the horses are made to dance on their back legs walking backwards and sideways, very exaggerated movements. Horses have to do 3 shows a day. If that’s not unnatural treatment I don’t know what is. There is documented evidence of cruelty involved in their training.

PippaZ

LondonMzFitz [Mon 09-Aug-21 12:03:14]

I don't ride, never have and have nothing to do with horses. But I'm allowed an opinion, surely?

You are right. No one can stop you from having an opinion. But if it is an uneducated one - as you tell us it is - please don't expect anyone to think it is equal to facts or life experience.

I read through the thread looking to be informed - to be educated, thank you.

There are several posts that support the use of horses for the Olympics but I've not changed my opinion that I am uncomfortable with it.

Are we only allowed to comment on subjects where we have first hand knowledge now PippaZ?

Really?!
That's a surprise.
How horrible for the horse and rider.

I wonder if she just assumed the horse played up for it’s previous rider because she was an inferior rider, not that the horse was having a bit of a melt down? It seems strange happily riding a horse that had had a refusal earlier on when she could have ridden a different one. Mind you some medals have been won not just on ability but making decisions that swing the balance in your favour, sometimes pre planned but sometimes split second.

Just discovered that Pentathletes do not bring their own horses to the Olympics but are instead randomly assigned one of 18 horses. I believe the horses were Japanese so not flown thousands of miles.
If the rider had shown a little more patience and understanding this whole debacle wouldn't have happened. She showed herself up, it wasn't the horses doing.

Just watched the clip being referred to. I don't know why the coach has been demonised. The punch would barely have been felt. The use of the rider's whip... now that's another matter.

youtu.be/z5S7ozr3ZhU

Gosh so much ill informed and uneducated twaddle on this thread. I'm not usually rude about posts but honestly there's a lot of rubbish on here from people who really don't seem to know much about horses. Just for the record once show jumps get to a decent height and 1.20m is a decent height, rider skill is involved. Firstly is the canter the right quality, there are lots of different canters and the rider wants a bouncy forward canter with the hocks underneath the horse. Are there related distances which mean you will need to shorten or lengthen the canter to meet the jump on the correct stride? Can the rider shorten the canter without losing impulsion or lengthen it without flattening the canter? Can the rider use turns to engage the hocks, is the jump up hill which will need a little more impulsion or down hill so the rider will need to stop the horse running on. Where is the collecting ring, horses will often nap towards that so you lose your line to the next fence. Can you keep the horse straight and between hand and leg which is really important when jumping doubles or trebles. Is the jump an upright or an oxer, they need to be ridden differently. What is the time allowance, have you walked your lines correctly so you will compete in the time allowed, do you need to take a quicker line and can you ride that effectively. All those instructions are being passed to the horse via the seat and legs with some additional help from the reins to supple and flex the horse and keep the shoulders straight. Honestly this is just the start of what is required to ride a decent sized show jumping course and it only works if the horse has been trained to understand the rider's aids. I would need to write a small essay on what is required from the rider to ride through a Grand Prix test and that is only possible when the horse has the training and strength to perform the moves. Please don't try to tell me that the horse does the work or that it is performed through cruelty. My horse loves to learn new things, they are intelligent animals and frankly if they don't want to work with the rider, they don't!

I have been around horses and other animals all my life and I have little faith that humans always act in the interest of said animals. Sadly, particularly with horses there is so much money involved that the interest of the animal will always be secondary. Even worse with dogs. They will be looked after as long as it is financially worthwhile. No matter what animal you are talking about, monetary interests will always win out, and there will always be people to argue the case.

I am absolutely sure you and the people you work with in the 'horse world' are treated really well, with care, kindness, love even.

Which does not mean there is no cruelty in other circles and countries, though.

MadeInYorkshire ''It is like a 'blind date' really, but it does show the skills of the athletes being able to do 5 different disciplines.''

Thanks, I somehow miss this earlier. There is a massive difference. People going on a blind date make that choice- horses don't. As you say yourself, you would not want to lend your horse to the practice- and for good reasons. Says it all.

I absolutely love animals, always have, always will. But I do not like them being used for any competitions and shows, etc, or bred to be sick and deformed. Hate falconery too - as birds of prey should fly freely- and can't stand birds in cages, or any other animals for that matter.

Dressage is fine if done properly- constantly taking horses very long distances is not, to my mind- but probably not half as cruel as so many other practices. I have done agility with my dogs in the past, and for local competions, for fun, and dogs love it. Would never put pressure or travel long distances for shows.

I'm with you Vegansrock. It was awful to see. Why on earth the rider wasn't disqualified from the Olympics I just don't know. Certainly both she and the coach should never be allowed to compete ever again.x

Kali2

MaizieD

Horses have much cruelty inflicted upon them to make them obey!

That is complete and utter nonsense.

There's been a considerable amount of rubbish on this thread but this has to take first prize for nonsensicalness...

Not your horses, I am sure. Which does not mean the comment above is nonsense. Rollkur is real, for instance- and same for circus animals.

What do you thin made Saint Boy react that way? No-one has answered, whose are those horses for that event? How are they chosen? Who trains them? And which horse owner/lover would put them through this?

I have my own strong opinions on cruel practices in the horse world, Kali. But I'm not airing them on here among a load of people willing to demonise the training and treatment of horses without really knowing much about it.

A great deal of what is being said insults many of the horse people I know who treat their horses with the utmost love and care and who study to improve their riding and their communication, mounted and on the ground, with their horses.

The utterly pathetic comment about horses having cruelty inflicted on them to make them obey is just not true of most horse/human interactions.

(And yes, rolkur is disgusting)

"Kali2"

My post on here explains where they have come from ....

I don't mind what it counts for.
I shall still keep giving it.
I have never seen a horse perform a complicated routine involving set steps, regardless of the fact that that they do them when feeling frisky.
Totally different. (In my opinion, of course)

MissAdventure

Making horses perform complicated routines of fancy steps for no good reason seems cruel to me.
I doubt they're signing up to learn the steps themselves.
I don't need to be a horse owner to hold that opinion.

Have you read Ex1dancers posts about the horses in the field she watches?

They do these 'steps' perfectly naturally. They wouldn't do it, or they'd do it so badly that they would be competed with, if they were forced into it by cruelty.

If you know nothing about horses your opinion counts for very little I'm afraid.

Well said Vegansrock. ??

Purplepoppies

I watched the particular pentathlon event some of you are discussing.
The horse had been out once already and hadn't wanted to participate the first time with the Egyptian athlete. The German athlete was already crying before she entered the arena. Her coach was encouraging her to whip the horse more, which she did. Absolutely abhorrent.
Personally I think the German athlete should have been banned too.
Whilst I understood she was watching her chance of a medal disappear in front of her eyes, that is not ever an excuse for cruelty.
The pentathletes only get 20 mins getting aquainted with their mount. Some of these people are not from equine backgrounds and that particular event is always going to be difficult for them. But should never be at the expense of the horse's health and wellbeing!!
I would like to understand where the Pentathlon horses come from. Who was responsible for allowing that horse back into the arena the second time after he showed signs of distress the first time?
I believe changes should be made there, and after the debacle that we witnessed last week, and the CHANGE.ORG petition, hopefully by 2024 better practices will be in place by then ?

The eventing and dressage athletes are a completely different matter imo.
These people have a great bond with their horse, they know their nuances and how and when to ask them to do what needs to be done at the right time.
The horses are exceptionally well cared for. They are part of the team.
I feel they have a place in the Olympics.

"Purplepoppies" if you read my post above somewhere it explains how the horses are 'chosen' to take part ....

Jess20

For real horse cruelty look at Tennessee Walking Horses and The Big Luck. Young horses kept with chains banging on the sensitive parts of their hoofs and heavy weights. The aim is for redicilous exaggerated unnatural leg movements that are no way natural. Very different to dressage which is based on natural movements and at Olympic level is not likely to be too stressful or the horses would play up and not cooperate.

I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw those poor horses and the horrible men riding them. I also saw some hideously badly bred horses with outrageously exaggeratedly dished faces and a silver sheen to their coats making them look like Cindy horses. Now that is cruelty.

And I agree wholeheartedly with M0nica. Grazing animals are necessary and if everyone were to stop eating meat farmers would, of necessity, need to cultivate more land and fertilise with chemicals. Where I live I am fortunate to have good butchers who sell local meat - beef grazed wholly on water meadows, sheep grazing off sugar beet tops (and fertilising as they go) and free range pigs which clean and fertilise fields for two or three years before growing crops again. And free range chickens. As M0nica says, the meat has more substance and is more filling, so you don't eat nearly as much. It also has a lot more flavour so doesn't need expensive sauces.