Animals don’t belong in the Olympics

Making horses perform complicated routines of fancy steps for no good reason seems cruel to me.
I doubt they're signing up to learn the steps themselves.
I don't need to be a horse owner to hold that opinion.

I would ask what your experience of horses is - but I suspect no experience whatsoever- you are entitled to an opinion but please make it an informed one - I also could make a damn good case for horseman ship and the relationship a horse has with its rider - but I doubt you’d listen anyway
With regard to the coach who abused the horse it was an abomination- unfortunately some people are cruel when things don’t go their way

MaizieD

^Horses have much cruelty inflicted upon them to make them obey!^

That is complete and utter nonsense.

There's been a considerable amount of rubbish on this thread but this has to take first prize for nonsensicalness...

Not your horses, I am sure. Which does not mean the comment above is nonsense. Rollkur is real, for instance- and same for circus animals.

What do you thin made Saint Boy react that way? No-one has answered, whose are those horses for that event? How are they chosen? Who trains them? And which horse owner/lover would put them through this?

Looking out of my sitting room window I am lucky enough to be able to watch two horses as they graze. One of them does a little sideways dance now and then, and sometimes he turns round in a circle backwards.
I love watching him, he seems such a happy creature with his prancing and dancing, I feel sure he must have been trained in dressage or even been a circus pony. The other horse tries to join in, but his contribution consists of careering around the field and kicking his heels. I feel sure they wouldn't behave like this unless they wanted to.

Horses have much cruelty inflicted upon them to make them obey!

That is complete and utter nonsense.

There's been a considerable amount of rubbish on this thread but this has to take first prize for nonsensicalness...

Such cruel and painful techniques were rewarded by very high marks in the recent past ''The most recent discussion about Rollkur was caused by the Rath family and multi million horse Totilas. The horse, previously trained in the Netherlands didn't perform as he used to do before, when he was ridden by young German rider Matthias Alexander Rath. In spring, the Raths announced that Sjef Janssen was due to train Totilas after the Olimpics. At the end of April 2012, Rath and Totilas competed again for the first time after a long break. In the warm up area they performed so much LDR, that the German national coach of dressage riders, Johnny Hilberath, cautioned the rider. In the arena, however, the couple was rewarded with the highest marks and won two ribbons.''

And we all know that Crufts and the Kennel Club have encouraged terrible defformities causing massive and painful medical conditions for dogs- from brain damage, breathing difficulties, skin diseases, hip displasia, and so much more- and the destructions of 100s of 1000s of dogs that do not conform.

One neighbour wanted to give me her dog because it would not retrieve the dumm bell- and I asked here who was the truly dumb one there! Doh!

And there is no way of us knowing how they have been trained. Sometimes some techniques are exposed and banned, as Rollkur in recent past- but what about the rest?

I totally agree with vegansrock, MazieD you are very wrong! Animals are forced to do unnatural acts all the time. Anyone who swims with captive dolphins, rides elephants, has photos with monkeys etc etc is condoning the cruelty that has been inflicted on those animals. Horses have much cruelty inflicted upon them to make them obey!

The top horses are cosseted no doubt they have their own personal groom and vet to travel with them - this indicates that their owners do realise long journeys can be stressful or even dangerous for horses. I am concerned about those horses that aren’t the top notch ones though. I’m sure they don’t get such 5 star treatment. This is an elite sport no doubt and most of the participants are from wealthy backgrounds. Not many equestrian teams from poorer countries.

I see lots of videos of well looked after baby monkeys on youtube.
Wonderfully cared for, running around their "mummy and daddy's" house wearing a lead and a nappy.
Well cared for doesn't cut it for me.

Assuming vegansrock rock is coming from a vegan viewpoint, which is fair enough. But equine events are unique in that they allow men and women to compete against each other and demonstrate the height of athleticism by both horse and rider. The IOC often considers removing equine disciplines from the schedule. I would be very sad if they did.

As for the modern pentathlon, I have put in a complaint to their governing body about using horses in that event. Too many riders were poor, the horses had a bad time. The two British women riders rode beautifully, though. As for the German woman, it was she that should have been banned. The coach was awful, but she was just hideous.

Horses that are happy to travel in horseboxes or planes suffer no ill effects and are well looked after, especially at this elite level. Some are worth millions. The owners and riders would not risk them if they were worried they may suffer.

I watched the particular pentathlon event some of you are discussing.
The horse had been out once already and hadn't wanted to participate the first time with the Egyptian athlete. The German athlete was already crying before she entered the arena. Her coach was encouraging her to whip the horse more, which she did. Absolutely abhorrent.
Personally I think the German athlete should have been banned too.
Whilst I understood she was watching her chance of a medal disappear in front of her eyes, that is not ever an excuse for cruelty.
The pentathletes only get 20 mins getting aquainted with their mount. Some of these people are not from equine backgrounds and that particular event is always going to be difficult for them. But should never be at the expense of the horse's health and wellbeing!!
I would like to understand where the Pentathlon horses come from. Who was responsible for allowing that horse back into the arena the second time after he showed signs of distress the first time?
I believe changes should be made there, and after the debacle that we witnessed last week, and the CHANGE.ORG petition, hopefully by 2024 better practices will be in place by then ?

The eventing and dressage athletes are a completely different matter imo.
These people have a great bond with their horse, they know their nuances and how and when to ask them to do what needs to be done at the right time.
The horses are exceptionally well cared for. They are part of the team.
I feel they have a place in the Olympics.

Alegrias, you completely misunderstand me.

I was not talking about managing the land economically but using it sustainably in a way that preserves the delicate habitats and plants, insects and micro-organisms that live on ancient pastures and without that grazing would become extinct. Dung beatles are so called for a reason, and that is only one of many organisms that rely on animal dung for life and existence.

To dismiss a whole post just because of some throw away remarks in the last para seems a very unbalanced way to respond to a post which apart from that was a considered argument for continuing to keep cattle and eat meat, albeit much less than we eat now.

I am no supporter of the industrialised meat industry that relies on feeding cattle feedstuffs their digestions are not adapted to, which make them ill and leads to high methane emissions and an immense industrial structure which also contributes to global warming through the machinery, transport, storage and slurry handling and cattle managing tractors etc. And that is before I start on the welfare of the animals, unable to graze, fed unsuitable food, leading msierable lives, for them slaughter must be a blessed relief.

I am all for cattle grazed on land they have formed and sustained for thousands of years, free to graze and wander, on grass, full of other wild plants that enable them often to self medicate, with little interference from humans unless their welfare requires it. These animals produce very little methane nor does their rearing need equipment, the transport and use of fertilisers etc. It is entirely benign.

Sarnia - good post. I looked at the video on Youtube and noted that the so-called punch was quite mild, in fact more of a push than a punch. Some of the comments also pointed that out. I'm not a horsey person but it seemed to me that the rider was pulling too hard on the reins the whole time and the horse was reacting against that. But then what do I know? Surely someone riding at Olympic level should know how to deal with a horse that is obviously distressed?

I absolutely adore dressage, show jumping, racing and steeple chasing. I rode a lot when younger, it takes great skill from both horse and rider to get to this level.

I totally understand the concerns for animal though, and just wonder why the OP is just concerned about the olympics ? No these events are “natural” neither are dogs shows, crafts, dogs and horses working aren’t natural but they do an amazing job, and in the main are loved and treated well

Surprised at this discussion - as VegansRock says, the Olympics are about human achievement - sure the rider works when on the horse but it's the animal that does the jumping, just as it's the lion and tiger that jumps on and off the stool to the crack of the whip of the tamer performing in a circus. That's the fundamental philosophical point isn't it - not whether the animal is being asked to do something it doesn't do naturally? There is no other Olympic sport that involves animals - live pigeons stopped being shot thank goodness in 1900, and dog sled racing, and skiers being pulled by riderless horses has only happened once as a demonstration event, again almost a century ago. Personally I would remove the equestrian events - and to all of those answering about the wonderful treatment horses get etc., etc., unless you're an actual horse you can't make that judgement. You have no evidence whatsoever to say either way. By the way, I'm not a vegan and I do know my way around a horse.

Vegansrock - I agree. Even if the majority of horses enjoy 'performing' /working with owner- I agree because they do not have a voice or a choice about being carted around for miles and oceans, etc. I wonder what Saint Boy would have said - apart from showing his total discontent and fears the way he did. Whose horse is he? Why are horses put in this awful situation- which is totally diffferent to working with a known and respected, even 'loved' human?

I just hate all animal shows, etc, too, Crufts included.

My horse is already fully trained, but arrived with some issues and anxiety around being caught in the paddock.
Accordingly, I developed a way of working wth her that involves giving her the choice of whether to come out of the paddock or not when I bring her a daily feed.
As I am sure that you know if you know about the training of horses, it is essential to take a horse out of the field in order to feed them, as otherwise a dangerous situation would arise because of jealousy from other members of the herd.
Working with horses at liberty, and asking for their willing cooperation is at the cutting edge of our present relationship with equines.
I would always advise you to check your facts on the internet before ridiculing others.
Gransnet is a delightful forum, with really considerate posters, and none of us can afford to offend anyone.

I don't know if this has already been said but Saint Boy, the horse at the centre of the whipping and punching row had already refused for the Russian rider earlier in the round. My question is how are horses chosen for this event? It looks as if Saint Boy was completely overwhelmed by his surroundings and what was being asked of him. Very unfair on the horse but surely the competitors should expect a more confident horse to perform on when so much is at stake. Very unfair on the competitor as well.

Good posts M0nica and MaizieD.

Autocorrect....Lick

That should read Big Luck, not Luck. These poor young horses are not lucky.

For real horse cruelty look at Tennessee Walking Horses and The Big Luck. Young horses kept with chains banging on the sensitive parts of their hoofs and heavy weights. The aim is for redicilous exaggerated unnatural leg movements that are no way natural. Very different to dressage which is based on natural movements and at Olympic level is not likely to be too stressful or the horses would play up and not cooperate.

Re M0nicas post, which I won't copy to save space:

Like in many arguments, often the simplest thing to do is frame it in black and white. To say that if you don't want This, then you must want That, and this is why That is unworkable. Ergo, your idea is wrong!!

I'm not sure vegansrock has advocated the wholesale slaughter and waste of many animals. If she did, I missed it, maybe somebody can point me at it. I did comment somewhere that if we have to euthanise animals, that could be acceptable; given that's what we effectively do anyway I don't see the difference. We can eat them, if you like. But we just don't replace them in such huge numbers.

We can work out economic ways of managing the land that is currently used for animal husbandry. We came up with a vaccine for Covid in less than a year, I'm sure we can solve this problem if we set our minds to it.

Oops dead should be deaf