Will Boris Johnson will break his manifesto pledge not to increase National Insurance in order to pay for social care in England?

I’m so sorry to hear your story Margaretin, it truly is a shame that so many areas don’t think dementia is an illness that should qualify for funded care.
My own mother has just gone into care following a third fall this year. She suffers from heart failure which has worsened after the fall and she can no longer get into or out of bed by herself, she needs assistance when going to the toilet, she has to be showered and dressed and undressed, and so on. The heart failure is causing her to be unable to be independent in any way. She is taken everywhere in a wheelchair now. She has been told she will no longer be eligible for NHS funding and she will be paying nearly £1300 per week for her care. My point is that heart failure is a medical condition but she will not receive any funding until her money and flat are gone which will not be very long at those prices as she is not a wealthy woman. Fair? I don’t think so. Cradle to grave? I don’t think so either.

Thank you Doodledog, I don’t often have a rant about things, but this in particular makes me so angry. If I could have had carers coming in or someone to sit with him at night so that I got a nights sleep I would have managed to keep him at home. The Dr recommended he went into the care home as I was making myself ill trying to do it all. Well, it’s water under the bridge now, but I would like to think no one else had it to go through, but I think that’s a vain hope.

My Father had vascular dementia, he had a fall and was taken to hospital by ambulance were they decided he couldn’t live at home anymore. After a period of approximately 6 weeks he was transferred to a home specialising in dementia/Alzheimer’s this was fully funded by NHS, the only things Mum paid for was chiropodist and haircuts.

We couldn’t fault the care, whilst our friend in the next Borough, same County couldn’t get any funding at all for her Mum with advanced dementia.

I'm so sorry to hear your tale, Margaret. My stepfather died of Lewey Body Dementia too. It is a cruel and horrible illness, and it is an illness. I don't understand why some illnesses are singled out as 'worthy' of funding and others not.

I agree that people with some savings often feel that they needn't have bothered saving at all, when they see others get the care free and they have to pay £1000 a week for care that they have paid for with taxes and NI already. It is not fair, just as it is not fair that many people will have to sell their house to fund their care, whereas others will have hundreds of thousands left over, because of an accident of geography. It is not fair that (as was mentioned in PMQs) that landlords are not being asked to pay extra NI, but tenants who may be in minimum wage are being hit.

(and yes, we know that there is no 'fund' etc etc, but that is not the fault of those who have paid in if 'their money' has been mismanaged - we all paid in in good faith).

As far as manifesto pledges go I think Boris takes the prize for the most ever broken.
1.Get Brexit Done- never mind N. Ireland
2.No increase in NI - well unless I feel like it
3. Plan for social care- written on the back of an envelope and lost somewhere so had to break 2 (sorry)
4. Control immigration - not counting the ones who arrive by boat told the RNLI not to save them

My husband died of dementia with Lewy Bodies. For those of you who don't know this form of dementia come with Parkinson like symptoms and hallucinations. He was definitely in a different world, together with his bionic arm, the bats who lived in the bathroom, the doodlebug shaped bugs that bit him in bed at night, the people who kept interfering with his wheelchair, the two men and a woman who lived with us and were from the Mafia, and the man I was having an affair with. I managed to keep him at home with no help at all until the last seven months of his life, by which time he was doubly incontinent, couldn't walk at all, and had to be fed. We got no help at all for his care and paid £1000 a week to the nursing home. Continuing care was denied. It very nearly killed me as well as him. He was my second husband, my first having died aged 57.
I would like to know where the NI payments that both he and my first husband and I made went? We thought that we were paying for our medical care. Why does someone afflicted as Trevor was not be considered ill? As far as I can see it doesn't pay you to take care and save for your old age. If you have nothing the state gives you everything, if you have savings they take that from you. I'm 84 now and I pray that when I die it will be quick so that what remains of our savings goes to our families.
I would have kept him at home with me if I could have had some help, instead of letting him go into care, where he was assaulted by one of the carers and had his lip split by being punched in the face. I I would not now feel guilty about having let him go into care.

MayBee70 I think it does vary, where my relative lives I fought and fought and got no help but I've heard other people say they had good support where they live. Doesn't seem fair.

maddyone

I’ll never understand why dementia or heart failure doesn’t qualify as medical, because these patients can’t do much for themselves, and need help with everything. But what do I know?

My friends husband had dementia and she said they got no help whatsoever. Not only that but their pension had been decimated by that pension thing that happened (can’t remember the details).

I can see that DiamondLily but it is a health condition, my relative with dementia is now at the stage where they can't communicate, they can't feed themself, can't eat normal food, can't wash or toilet themself. They aren't what some people think of with dementia, granny being vague and forgetful and saying silly things.

My dad did have vascular dementia, but he also had serious “physical problems”, caused by botched operations, assorted infections, and other things.

I didn’t have a struggle to get it for him, but I know that it’s a huge problem with things like dementia and Alzheimer’s. I suppose it’s that it’s not about care/looking after, just about actual doctor/nurse input.

I’ll never understand why dementia or heart failure doesn’t qualify as medical, because these patients can’t do much for themselves, and need help with everything. But what do I know?

Continuing Care seems almost impossible to get for dementia. Well maybe it varies round the country but in some areas it seems almost impossible.

It’s a bit of a con. It won’t cover board and lodging, which take up a lot of the fees. For someone with extensive medical/nursing needs, they can already apply for NHS Continuing Care, which means the lot is paid for, if eligible, regardless of wealth. I got it for my dad.

The new tax comes in next April, but the care costs changes won’t kick in until October 2023. Assuming the NHS doesn’t cling onto it.

Today, they are announcing that the triple lock is being removed on pensions. For a year, maybe, hopefully. Can’t promise really. Can’t rule out more tax rises/cuts to services.

Both will go through because Johnson has threatened his MPs with a reshuffle, but now the small print is being read on the social care changes, a lot of people, young, old and care providers are very angry.

growstuff

So what's happened to the "ready-made" social care plan? It appears that the bulk of NIC increase is going to go to the NHS anyway. Social care will be left with the crumbs.

It's all smokescreen and mirrors anyway because NICs aren't ring-fenced for any purpose. It's just a way of raising taxes for one sector and not others.

Do you remember the toilet roll shortage when people were panic buying last year? I think they ran out at No 10.

Petera Some people still believe that managing the economy is similar to managing a household, no matter how many times that fallacy is corrected.

As regards debt - the country has borrowed money since the Bank of England was established in 1694 to raise money to finance war with France in the Low Countries. Ever since then, the loans have been repaid and then new loans taken out, usually to finance wars.

Some percentages - debt in relation to GDP

1715 end of War of Spanish Succession 60%
1784 American War of Independence 156%
1816 Napoleonic Wars 237%
1914 start of the Great War 25%

So, as you can see the debt does get paid off. That debt existed at the same time as GB was expanding its Empire to become, for a time, the largest in the world.

Nothing to worry about.

PippaZ

Shropshirelass

PS. I think a tax increase is the fairest way.

Why? We don't need one; this government could just allocate the money. If we then see inflation being a problem the best way to take the heat out of the market would take away wealth not everyday living money.

Related to this - there were some interesting figures on More or Less the other day for those that are using COVID as a cover. Summarising - but please go and listen as I will probably get some issues slightly off:

Our debt to GDP ratio currently stands at around 1 and most of the increase in the last 15 years actually came from the financial crisis, not from COVID (tangentially it was 2.5 at the end of WW2 - a debt that the much-maligned - including by me - baby boomers paid off).

So we owe a lot of money, but the most interesting aspect of this is that - because of the historically low interest rates - the actual cost of servicing our debt is the lowest it has been for a century.

So while it will have to be paid back sometime (and there is a possibility of a fudge with the part of that debt owed to the BoE) as far as cash flow is concerned we're actually in a pretty good place. Of course I am talking about the 'national' situation, many individuals have suffered greatly, and a smaller number have gained enormously.

So bottom line is we do not have to pay down the debt quickly to reduce the servicing charges and, if we don't do that, we should have the money to support changes to social care.

And all this is ignoring the fact that, as many other people have said in one way or another, the government is not a shop or a household: it manages the economy by creating and destroying the money supply.

He’s blaming Labour now. They’ve been in government for 11+ years and he’s blaming Labour. I nearly voted Conservative because Cameron promised to cap the amount we had to pay for social care in old age and, when he was elected it went out the window. Thank goodness I didn’t vote for them.

So what's happened to the "ready-made" social care plan? It appears that the bulk of NIC increase is going to go to the NHS anyway. Social care will be left with the crumbs.

It's all smokescreen and mirrors anyway because NICs aren't ring-fenced for any purpose. It's just a way of raising taxes for one sector and not others.

PippaZ

Shropshirelass

PS. I think a tax increase is the fairest way.

Why? We don't need one; this government could just allocate the money. If we then see inflation being a problem the best way to take the heat out of the market would take away wealth not everyday living money.

And that's the rub! A Tory government will never seriously tax wealth (ie assets) because asset owners make up their core vote. Increasingly, we live in a country where gaps are widening and it's more profitable to "play Monopoly" with assets than to earn an income through paid work.

theworriedwell

maddyone

I don’t think those exact words were used by the other three, so you are correct theworriedwell. But in Cameron and May’s cases, a possible solution was put forward but caused, much as this one is doing, a furore among the press and others.
I don’t like lying either and do not approve of Johnson saying something that is not true. I don’t approve of anyone saying something that is not true.

Glad we can agree on that. It amazes me that so many people don't seem to care about the blatant lies.

PippaZ

Doodledog Fri 03-Sep-21 13:32:10

I am not sure that "the young paying for the old" or "the old paying for the young" is the problem. It is the idea that this might be happening which will be whipped up by the media and cause anger that isn't necessary and doesn't do any good.

Absolutely right. Imo, this divisive argument is a strategy to avoid people asking why the very rich are able to salt their assets away abroad and pay proportionately far less tax than their due. The Philip Greens, the JRMs and indeed the Boris Johnsons of this world live on another planet.

Shropshirelass

PS. I think a tax increase is the fairest way.

Why? We don't need one; this government could just allocate the money. If we then see inflation being a problem the best way to take the heat out of the market would take away wealth not everyday living money.

I don’t think those exact words were used by the other three, so you are correct theworriedwell. But in Cameron and May’s cases, a possible solution was put forward but caused, much as this one is doing, a furore among the press and others.
I don’t like lying either and do not approve of Johnson saying something that is not true. I don’t approve of anyone saying something that is not true.

Did those 3 say they had a plan that was ready to implement? I don't remember that. Like I said can't stand a liar can't trust a liar. Things go wrong, life gets in the way and that's fair enough but deliberately barefaced lying is something different.