Does the Government think that punching everyone in the face means no one will complain?

growstuff

Pippa Where have you got the idea that £100k is protected. That was in May's plan, but not this one.

My understanding is that the maximum people will pay is £86k. Those with assets of less than £20k will pay nothing. In England, the amount can be deferred anyway. The people inheriting a deceased person's estate will receive a maximum of £86k less. Quite honestly, that's peanuts on a high value house, but significant for a low value one.

In any case, people have begun to look at the figures and it's clear that the bulk of the money raised won't go into social care, but the NHS. Claiming that this move has "fixed" social care is a con.

He definitely mentioned £100K and compared it to the current £23K (actually £23,250). He then compared the new £20K to the current £14K (actually £14,500).

The £86K was the lifetime maximum.

They said nothing about the tortuous care at home system.

None of this happens until 2023 and I agree, it does seem centred on Health.

I think that the wheels are going to begin to come off pretty quickly.

The big, hidden, change in the last set of proposals - was a change in funding for care at home.

It used to be that property was disregarded as 'income' for those cared for at home - yet taken into account for those in care homes. That change was quietly dropped - with a promise that we wouldn't have to sell our homes - in 'our lifetime' (it sounded good).

Care costs would instead be 'owed' until they were retrieved from the estate of the deceased.

This is from the Evening Standard. The bullet points may help.

The key points include:

*A new, UK-wide 1.25 per cent Health and Social Care Levy, based on National Insurance Contributions, will be introduced from April 2022.
*To ensure fairness, all working adults, including those over the state pension age will pay the levy.
*The rates of dividend tax will also increase by 1.25 per cent, broadening the type of incomes which will fund the plan.
*The highest earning 14 per cent of people are expected to foot about half the bill.
*The proposals aim to raise an additional £12 billion per year, to be invested in frontline health and social care across the UK over the next three years, to ensure the NHS can recover from Covid and the health and care system has the long-term resources that it needs.
*A cap will be imposed so no-one in England will have to pay more than £86,000 in care costs over the course of their lifetime, equivalent to about three years in care.
*People with assets between £20,000 and £100,000 will be expected to contribute to the cost of their care but will also receive means-tested state support.
*The new £100,000 limit is over four times higher than the current limit of £23,250, so many more people will now be eligible for support.
*The health service will be ramped up to operate at 110 per cent capacity by 2023/24 to tackle a backlog in treatments and appointments of more than five million which ministers admit will get worse before it gets better, with warnings that it could hit 13 million by the end of this year.
*However, many Tory MPs fear the extra billions earmarked for social care will still be needed in future years for the health service.

The average stay in care is about 2 years.

I heard it as him saying that you can now have £23250 in the bank before you have to pay at all, instead of the £14500 it used to be.

It's nothing like as good a deal as he's saying, and whichever way you look at it, it has not 'sorted out social care once and for all'.

As was said upthread, a cap of £86000 is a lot better than none at all, but it will still wipe out most of the equity of many people in cheap areas whereas it will scratch the surface of the value of a house in London.

It is not clear where the £86k is going to come from if people don't have savings - Starmer asked Johnson to say from the despatch box that he was standing by his assertion that nobody would have to sell their house, but he wriggled (the Speaker is utterly useless).

There are lots of people who should be paying but aren't - too many to list - and many of them are far better off than those at the shallow end of the NI contribution scale. Starmer's example was landlords paying nothing but their tenants on low wages having to pay.

I knew the devil would be in the detail, but it's pretty clear that this is not a fair way to sort things out.

Hetty58

The big, hidden, change in the last set of proposals - was a change in funding for care at home.

It used to be that property was disregarded as 'income' for those cared for at home - yet taken into account for those in care homes. That change was quietly dropped - with a promise that we wouldn't have to sell our homes - in 'our lifetime' (it sounded good).

Care costs would instead be 'owed' until they were retrieved from the estate of the deceased.

That's a nasty sting in the tail Hetty58 but it might provide better Care - once the money is actually going into Care.

What happens about accommodation charges? I have the BBC news on, and it appears that the £86k charge is just for care, not accommodation.

I haven't read the whole thread, but the rises in NI and tax will be applied for all those in work across the whole of the UK.

However, these improvements in social care apply only to England.

It isn’t looking good is it?

And how are the young going to find 86k if they need care?

PippaZ, do note the carefully worded 'over the course of their lifetime' - what happens after that? We really need an insurance-based system, as, after all, most of us won't need long term care. It's a lottery whether we will.

Now, wealth is solely based on two things - the money in your bank and house. All other assets, like your Rolls Royce, art collection, jewellery etc. are disregarded. How is that fair?

I heard it as him saying that you can now have £23250 in the bank before you have to pay at all, instead of the £14500 it used to be.

Definitely not right *Doodledog.

Currently
1. Above £23,250 you pay it all.

2. At £23,250 you pay a means tested amount and both income and assets are taken into account. It's worked backwards to leave you will get an "allowance".

3. When the assets reduce to £14,500 you will be left with your savings. Your income is still means tested.

The main figures now become:
1. Above £100,000 you pay it all.

2. At £100,000 you will pay a means tested amount as above.

3. At £20,000 you will be left with your savings.

I imagine the means tested income on 2 & 3 will remain.

to leave you will get to leave you with

It seems to me that the money is actually being used in the NHS to try to catch-up with the result of the cuts over the Tories tenure. I’m not sure just how this will fit with social care once that starts by suddenly reducing the nhs money. It seems a pigs ear to me.

What will people have to pay for their social care?

Currently in England, if people have assets worth more than £23,250, they have to pay for their social care, and there is no cap on costs, meaning some people have to sell their homes to cover these. Under the new system, anyone with assets below £20,000 will not have to pay anything from these, although they might have to make a contribution from any income.

Those with assets from £20,000 to £100,000 and above will have to contribute, on a sliding scale, although the details are set out, and it depends on contributions from local authorities, which deliver much of social care. However, people in this bracket will not contribute more than 20% of their assets each year, and once their assets are worth less than £20,000, they would pay nothing more, although they might still contribute from any income.

Those with assets above £100,000 must meet all fees until their assets fall below £100,000. There is a maximum payment towards care of £86,000, which ministers say is about the equivalent of three years of full-time care.

This new means test system comes into force in October 2023 – until that point some people will still have to pay more than £86,000 in total.
What other changes are planned for social care?

Beyond the promise to bring the health and social care systems together, there is little detail so far on the overhaul of social care, beyond the prospect of a white paper to develop longer-term plans. The current plan does pledge £500m over three years for social care workforce training and recruitment, and extra money set aside to local authorities to help deliver social care, and to deliver the integration, though without any specific sums for these.

Personal assets and contributions to the costs of care

Now

Assets less than £23,250

Care completely funded by state.

Over this amount care is self-funded with no cap

From October 2023

Assets less than £20,000

Care completely funded by state

Assets £20,000 to £100,000

Care self-funded with some state help

£86,000

Cap on total care costs

Doodledog

What happens about accommodation charges? I have the BBC news on, and it appears that the £86k charge is just for care, not accommodation.

Correct!

Many people with low value homes (mainly in the north) and few savings will end up having to sell their homes anyway. For example, if a person has £10k in savings, the additional money will have to come from the sale of a home. As you say Doodledog the amount which will need to be found will be more than £86k.

A person with substantial assets (money in the bank) will be able to pay from savings and will not need to sell a home, which can be passed on to family.

There is something I am not understanding here. When you say someone must meet all the fees until their assets drop below £100,000, does that include the value of their house? So do they have to sell the house?
Do they keep the house until they die and then their heirs sell the house and keep £100,000?
Or what?

Wouldn't their pension be enough to pay accommodation costs? If their pension did and the care costs are paid then the house wouldn't need to be sold.

Ilovecheese you don't have to ask for state help. If you don't they are not going to know anything about your finances. If you do ask they will explain.

If someone goes into a home with enough money to see them through anything they will probably never contact the council and will just have a contract with the home and pay directly to them.

Don't forget nothing changes until 2023.

You have your pension and any other benefits taken into account in the means test currently. Also, currently, the state then pays the whole charge including accommodation.

One thing that is certain is this is not a "National" Health and Care Service.

When the National Health Service was created it encompassed the private doctors and hospitals and they have all been run by the state ever since.

There is no way this is a joint service nor can it be under the Conservatives. They wanted the money for the NHS. They used the NHS brand to get it. Care will get very little and will still be a stand-alone, mainly private, probably underfunded service.

What a lot of obscuring and embellishing of the truth with a load of misleading and, at times, irrelevant information.

The NHS and Care Sector needs an overhaul and audit from top to bottom,

Not sure any Political Party has the backbone to carry it out and then make the changes needed, whether they be tax rises or a new national insurance scheme.

The tax system needs an overhaul and audit from top to bottom.
Not sure any political party has the backbone to carry it out and then make the changes needed either.

theworriedwell

Wouldn't their pension be enough to pay accommodation costs? If their pension did and the care costs are paid then the house wouldn't need to be sold.

No, not necessarily. If you stay in a hotel or B & B, you still have to pay accommodation costs, even if you're paying rent or mortgage or own a home outright.

Casdon

The tax system needs an overhaul and audit from top to bottom.
Not sure any political party has the backbone to carry it out and then make the changes needed either.

Totally agree

PippaZ

You have your pension and any other benefits taken into account in the means test currently. Also, currently, the state then pays the whole charge including accommodation.

But you don't keep your pension if all your costs are being met. You have to make a contribution from your pension, you are left with a small part of your pension. Same happens to younger people in care, they don't get to keep all their benefits. You are left with a personal allowance, I think it was around £25 the last time I checked. This is then for personal purchases e.g. cigarettes, chocolate, toiletries, clothes.