Biological men in woman only spaces

I am not sure Ilovecheese, I hold out a bit of hope, the recent court cases have mostly been in the favour of women, although obviously the reversal of the Keira Bell judgement was a blow although not an unexpected one to be honest. I didnt for one minute think Keira would win the first case so that surprised me. Women have moved the debate on from 'no debate' and there is no going back on that.

Sorry, I thought it must be obvious that I was talking about lavatories in discos rather than public parks.
I think it is becoming obvious that women are going to have to get used to losing out, the drive for self identification is relentless.
Any time a woman expresses a wish to keep their tiny little bits of what feels like privacy, they are told they are wrong.

Rosie I've never made that connection in my mind, a quieter place to talk and fix your makeup maybe. If toilets are safe places to be appreciated and revered as such then society is more broken than I thought.

It's a toilet.

Public toilets in venues such as clubs, pubs dance suites etc have been a place for females to gather for respite from the male gaze or persistence. I don't think anybody would regard a public toilet in a park for example as a place of safety.

Public toilets are the least secure places. There are no emergency exits, you can't lock the main door in, they have thick walls and the cubicles are very often easy to climb over.

I had an incident when I was 15 where a boy followed me in at a campsite and I was luckily able to push past him and run.

The signs on the door aren't magic.

I have never seen a public toilet as a safe place to hide

As I understand it, the case of the spa in America was in California, which has brought in self identification. Not all of the US has done the same, so I don't think it is quite accurate to state that it was one case in the whole of America.

As regards who does what in public lavatories, they have in the past (obviously when I was younger) been a place to get away from men who didn't seem to want to take no for an answer.

PippaZ

Galaxy

Because people are saying that transwomen need to be in womens spaces to be safe. That implies that Male spaces are dangerous. But when we point that out as one of the reasons for sex segregation we are then told we are calling men predators. It cant be both Pippa.
It's also to do with saying any sex can be a predator, and yes of course they can, but men and women commit crimes in very different ways. We cant pretend that's not a reality.

What is that in reply to, please? I'm afraid I can't make sense of it.

Ha ha that reply is so funny because Galaxy's post hits it
full on, well done

The law gives exemptions Pippa. That is what has happened to be honest in terms of changing rooms many businesses tried mixed sex in terms of changing rooms and very quietly reverted to single sex because of the incidents that occurred.

Galaxy

Yes I absolutely agree about compromise, so the provision of mixed sex and single sex changing rooms etc. And refuges prisons sport to remain single sex. I cant speak for anyone else violet but the assumption that we dont know transwomen is just that an assumption. I spent most of my twenties getting drunk with transwomen (long story) and lots of transwomen agree with the position that you cant change sex.

That isn't a compromise Galaxy.

The law is there and has been for 11 years. If there is a problem with changing rooms, for instance, then the businesses will have to work out what to do.

Equally refuges, prisons and sport - probably the most difficult - will have to review their safeguarding practices or bring in rules for all not just a few.

Changes that move us forward often make life better for all. I wouldn't be suprised if this happens in this case.

Yes I absolutely agree about compromise, so the provision of mixed sex and single sex changing rooms etc. And refuges prisons sport to remain single sex. I cant speak for anyone else violet but the assumption that we dont know transwomen is just that an assumption. I spent most of my twenties getting drunk with transwomen (long story) and lots of transwomen agree with the position that you cant change sex.

I think the situations that have happened are awful. Safeguarding has failed and people who should have been kept safe weren't.

I still believe that we have to find solutions and compromise.

How many times has a very few bad acts turned us against an entire demographic? How much hate and fear has spread and ruined the lives of many due to the actions of few? There are plenty of examples if you think about it.

We can't let bad experiences or fear turn us against people who don't deserve it.

I would suggest everyone here go watch some trans stories. There are so many trans people out there. Watch them become the gender they were meant to be, watch them overcome their struggles. That's what convinced me that I need to make space for them.

I know that there will be arguments that say, people have transitioned and discovered it was the wrong choice later but what about the hundreds of thousands that it was the right choice for?

I just think that most trans are beautiful people who just want to be accepted. That's what matters to me.

Sorry which case are you talking about, I am talking about Karen White in terms of prison.

You amaze me PZ.
You’d dismiss the threatening ones in mental health hospitals where terrified women were called bigots because fully formed maleS, selfID as women were allowed on a female ward and the staff could not remove the male?
One I know of personally.
Do stop this ‘it’s only one’ or ‘only a few’ or bad ones exist ‘in society in general’. Unless you think that makes it right.
One is too many-or would that be your attitude if a family member of yours was raped or murdered. Would you still be talking about the culprit as ‘one bad apple’?

I still haven't heard any GNetters offended in a public toilet by a trans women in the last 11 years.

Galaxy

There have been a number of sexual assaults in prison by a transwomen, last I heard the legal process was still ongoing on that case, a child was assaulted in a female toilet by a transwoman, I think it was 2016, then there are the current issues with relation to a spa, in which women and children complained that a transwoman was exposing themselves, obviously they were told they were bigots etc, unfortunately that person was a convicted sex offender so lots of people had to backtrack on that one. Obviously I havent covered the issues of sport and refuges.

The single case you highlight was completed in July and the judge found agains the claimant.

The only one about a spa was in America. In Los Angeles, in fact. Apparently an arrest has been made earlier this month so it will probably be some time before we get the judgement.

So that is one case in the whole of America and one that was not carried in the UK. I am personally not suprised it is taking a while for this to settle down, nor am I supprised that there might be the odd bad apple. There are plenty of them in society in general.

Oh and I am not sure how you think there is an atmosphere of women being able to talk about their experiences as whenever women try to talk about this they receive threats of sexual violence, death threats etc, or as JKR experienced porn posted on a story thread which she created for children. But yes absolutely nothing has happened.

There have been a number of sexual assaults in prison by a transwomen, last I heard the legal process was still ongoing on that case, a child was assaulted in a female toilet by a transwoman, I think it was 2016, then there are the current issues with relation to a spa, in which women and children complained that a transwoman was exposing themselves, obviously they were told they were bigots etc, unfortunately that person was a convicted sex offender so lots of people had to backtrack on that one. Obviously I havent covered the issues of sport and refuges.

Whatever. I would still like to know who has actually had a bad experience since 2010 when trans people, identifying as female, could use the public toilets of their choice.

In that is 11 years apparently no one has.

Sorry but I thought she terrible . She went on about being a mum and not attempting to give a direct answer . The interviewer understandably became irritated with her. I speak as someone who would quite possibly vote Lib Dem by the way

PippaZ

I did. I didn't find it waffling. I found the interviewer useless. If you don't let people answer in their own way you learn nothing. There are many people (and TV companies) who could (and did) learn from Jimmy Young.

What answer the question they wished had been asked instead of the one that was? I've no doubt you'd be according the same consideration to ..... well let's start with Boris Johnson, he's good at answering "in his own way"

I will commend her for saying that it was totally wrong and unacceptable (I'm giving the gist, not verbatim) that Rosie Duffield feels she can't attend the Labour conference.

I did. I didn't find it waffling. I found the interviewer useless. If you don't let people answer in their own way you learn nothing. There are many people (and TV companies) who could (and did) learn from Jimmy Young.

Yes I did Lucca I loved it when EB said "you don't get to change (or was it reframe?) the question. She didn't have one coherent word to say. And when she said the courts will decide for children under 16, then was told the Supreme Court appeal had been successful so the courts would not be involved....."oh yes" as if she'd never said it in the first place...... I wasn't driving, thank goodness, caught it on catchup.

Galaxy

Because people are saying that transwomen need to be in womens spaces to be safe. That implies that Male spaces are dangerous. But when we point that out as one of the reasons for sex segregation we are then told we are calling men predators. It cant be both Pippa.
It's also to do with saying any sex can be a predator, and yes of course they can, but men and women commit crimes in very different ways. We cant pretend that's not a reality.

What is that in reply to, please? I'm afraid I can't make sense of it.

Because there are spaces that a
sometimes need to be segregated. So you would be in trouble if you set up a pub only for men for example, but you wouldnt be in trouble if you established a support group for men with mental health issues, the equality act recognises that there are certain situations where you are allowed to do this.