Biological men in woman only spaces

But "business as usual" in the past didn't allow women to be equal in our society. At one time, it was considered reasonable that they were the property of men.

"Business as usual" turned gay men into criminals while gay women were thought to be too outrageous to exist.

Business as usual was serfdom and even slavery.

I want none of those. Nor do I want trans people to be "othered". Progress is never easy and it's sometimes frightening. Just imagine a Gransnet discussion at the time of the suffragettes. The same sort of people would be for and against it. But in spite of the difficulties, we now see it as progress and praise what them for fighting for change.

I have never wanted to undress in public and so if I go to the swimming pool I shower wearing my costume. If there are no cubicles to change in I change in the loo. Transwomen could do the same to avoid revealing anything most women don't have.

Rosie51 I'm sorry but everyone thinks their husbands, brothers and sons are safe, including those related to predators.

It would still be wrong to treat them all that way and it is wrong to treat trans women like they could all be possible predators.

That's why the solution is to find a safe way to be inclusive. Not a transphobic way where trans women have nowhere to go or to ahem go.

VioletSky

There are some really good points being made about why the battle should be creating a society where safe spaces aren't needed.

Trans women in general are being made scapegoats for the crimes of others.

This would be like being afraid of our own sons and treating them like they could attack someone at any moment.

It really wouldn't.

Transwomen aren't being made scapegoats. Women are simply asking for business as usual - a chance to be assured that there are no men around when thy are vulnerable - or at the very least to know who they are.

If our sons were trans we would still know that they were our sons - and unless they are habitually violent, there would be no reason to expect them to attack anyone at any moment.

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VioletSky

There are some really good points being made about why the battle should be creating a society where safe spaces aren't needed.

Trans women in general are being made scapegoats for the crimes of others.

This would be like being afraid of our own sons and treating them like they could attack someone at any moment.

Quite. It is very like the attitude to Gays before the law was changed. They were perverted; they were peodophiles, etc., etc.

These are people. "Predatory" comes in any sex and under many guises. The vast majority of people are not predatory.

Doodledog

*Why should women expect female-only spaces? It sounds very Talibanistic to me. Can we only be safe if we are in a special place? Next, we will not be allowed out of that space. We will not be allowed to mix or compete with men (something many have fought for). We will not be allowed to be educated with the opposite sex, something that was still frowned on by some when I was growing up.*

Are you serious? This is the second time you have accused me of thinking like the Taliban - the first was for having a different point of view from yours on pensions!

No, having a single sex space to change after swimming, or having a female doctor to examine women who have just been raped does not lead to single-sex education or women not being allowed out without male guardians. Similarly, not wanting to be left with lights out in a locked cell with a biological male does not equate to separatist thinking.

Nobody is saying that we can 'only be safe in a special place', just that there are times when women feel safer amongst other women, particularly when vulnerable or naked.

Either you are deliberately finding fault with what I am saying or you are losing the plot.

I didn't accuse you of thinking like the Taliban. I said the segregation of women was along their line of thinking. I don't think you are the only one who has ever mentioned "safe spaces" for women. That was what I was addressing, not single-sex spaces (whatever they are).

I have no memory of mentioning the Taliban previously.

It's OK to not agree but we need solutions not rigid stances

VioletSky

There are some really good points being made about why the battle should be creating a society where safe spaces aren't needed.

Trans women in general are being made scapegoats for the crimes of others.

This would be like being afraid of our own sons and treating them like they could attack someone at any moment.

Absolutely not

I also think that there should be male only spaces for those who wish to use them.

There are some really good points being made about why the battle should be creating a society where safe spaces aren't needed.

Trans women in general are being made scapegoats for the crimes of others.

This would be like being afraid of our own sons and treating them like they could attack someone at any moment.

If Labour and the LDs don’t alter their stance on this nonsense, IMO they will lose an awful lot of women’s votes at the next GE.

I agree, and that is worrying, too. We could be stuck with the Tories for longer, as another side-effect of the TRA lobby. I personally know a number of women who don't feel able to vote Labour as a result of this (and they wouldn't vote Lib Dem anyway) so are feeling disenfranchised.

As long as there are cubicles, I don’t mind about loos or changing rooms. I’d never use a communal changing room anyway.
As for sports, people who have grown to adulthood as men, and subsequently identify as women would seem to have a very unfair physical advantage over biological women. But trans rights do now seem to trump fairness.

What does really anger me is the ridiculous insistence by a small, very vociferous minority that traditional words like ‘woman’, breast-feeding, etc., can no longer be used, and that to do so is trans-phobic.

If Labour and the LDs don’t alter their stance on this nonsense, IMO they will lose an awful lot of women’s votes at the next GE.

Doodledog if nobody is assuming transwomen are up to no good, what is the problem.

As explained, the problem is that men can say they are identifying as female and access female spaces. Transitioned transwomen are not the ones being assumed to be up to no good. Nor are the vast majority of men, whosoever they identify. What is concerning people is the fact that attackers may use the fact that there are no safe spaces to gain access to vulnerable women. Those attackers may or may not be trans - but they are very likely to be men, who, until now, have been unable to invade female-only spaces.

What on earth is wrong with having female only spaces, please can anyone tell me as I just do not get it?

(A man with a penis and testicles can wear a dress and a full face of make-up, unfortunately that does not make him a woman. It is impossible to change the chromosomes with which you were born)

PZ I didn’t ask about the government having ideas ? I asked what you would do.

Why should women expect female-only spaces? It sounds very Talibanistic to me. Can we only be safe if we are in a special place? Next, we will not be allowed out of that space. We will not be allowed to mix or compete with men (something many have fought for). We will not be allowed to be educated with the opposite sex, something that was still frowned on by some when I was growing up.

Are you serious? This is the second time you have accused me of thinking like the Taliban - the first was for having a different point of view from yours on pensions!

No, having a single sex space to change after swimming, or having a female doctor to examine women who have just been raped does not lead to single-sex education or women not being allowed out without male guardians. Similarly, not wanting to be left with lights out in a locked cell with a biological male does not equate to separatist thinking.

Nobody is saying that we can 'only be safe in a special place', just that there are times when women feel safer amongst other women, particularly when vulnerable or naked.

Either you are deliberately finding fault with what I am saying or you are losing the plot.

The worry I have is being alone in a small intimate space like many toilets are especially the hand washing section with a man I don't know who ,if he intended mischief , could easily do so, ie nick my handbag or worse . I also frequently have my young grand children with me and I feel vulnerable.

Doodledog

Nobody is assuming that transwomen are up to no good. People are concerned that as long as there are no female-only spaces, men can access areas that were once reserved for women only, and where women may be vulnerable (eg inhospitable or in DV hostels) or in a state of undress (eg toilets or changing rooms).

The fact that gay people were historically seen as a threat is a false equivalence.

Doodledog if nobody is assuming transwomen are up to no good, what is the problem.

Why should women expect female-only spaces? It sounds very Talibanistic to me. Can we only be safe if we are in a special place? Next, we will not be allowed out of that space. We will not be allowed to mix or compete with men (something many have fought for). We will not be allowed to be educated with the opposite sex, something that was still frowned on by some when I was growing up.

As with hospitals, if you gave people a little more dignity and privacy in general, it would not be a problem. Toilets were sorted out up-thread and changing room could also be individual.

You do not explain why the comparison with how gay people (assumed at that time to be mainly men) were treated is what you term a false equivalence. Perhaps you could tell us?

Mollygo

PippaZ nice idea about all spaces being safe for everyone.
How would you go about setting that up and ensuring that it works?

Isn't that what governments are paid to do?

I have heard the mention of prisons - I really wouldn't think many think of that as a safe space. Women attack women and men attack men don't they?

GN has already come up with a way of making public toilets safe for all. They may have other ideas but I suspect it is often to do with the design of the buildings.

Is this government doing anything about unsafe housing, prisons, toilets, etc? I'm selfish. I want my environment to be safe too.

PippaZ nice idea about all spaces being safe for everyone.
How would you go about setting that up and ensuring that it works?

Nobody is assuming that transwomen are up to no good. People are concerned that as long as there are no female-only spaces, men can access areas that were once reserved for women only, and where women may be vulnerable (eg inhospitable or in DV hostels) or in a state of undress (eg toilets or changing rooms).

The fact that gay people were historically seen as a threat is a false equivalence.

This is such a non-argument. If someone wants to be seen as a sex they were not born into why do people immediately assume they are up to know good. We used to label gays in the same way and have been proved to be wrong.

As for safe spaces; all spaces should be safe for everyone. If they are not, they are not safe for anyone.

But most of us are not saying that transwomen are the danger, but men who are pretending to be.
The same applies though, one is too many.

So GJ, As long as it’s only a small number of women who are damaged by trans-women it’s okay then.
diversion alert
By the same token if Peter Sutcliffe had only murdered one woman . . .

The point is though, the occurence of stuff like the event being referred to is miniscule. While the vast, vast majority of assaults on women are perpetrated by people already know. And the huge majority of the stranger-danger attacks on women are by cis men.

And yet, here we are, going around the track yet again hashing out the same old argument, focusing on a number of trans women who probably amount to no more than 20 world wide.