Biological men in woman only spaces

Perhaps all toilets and changing rooms should be single person booth style rather than same sex communal as they are in some restaurant chains to be used by either sex and open space, so you don't feel so isolated.

This is very tiresome.
Many women just want to have a wee in peace without worrying .
Unisex toilets don't do that. They are a mistake for a vast majority of women

Doodledog here's what I said. If transmen are using women's loos then the opportunity is open for any man to enter those loos and claim to be trans. This doesn't mean transmen are a danger. Just that the things you seem to think will happen if transwomen use women's loos can equally happen if they use men's loos. But the predatory male you see dressing as a woman to access women's loos doesn't even need to dress as a woman. He can just walk in. How you translate that as transmen being a danger I don't know. It does however vividly illustrate your obsession with always seeing transpeople as being at fault.

As for the woman in the park at any time I would just warn everyone including men about the danger of isolated toilets. It seems to me to be a little naive to think that the fact the law doesn't allow him to be somewhere would in any way deter someone intent on assaulting another person.

I prefer everyone to keep their clothes on unless I'm life drawing. I know it's odd but there you are.

I think accusing men who take their clothes off in front of children of "flashing" is just so wrong. If you think it's OK for people to be naked in front of children why should their sex or their gender matter? I was wondering is there an age when this kicks in. So naked boys are OK but after puberty NO?

Rosie51 It was the early 1960s and it was one of the most important in the country.

We visited a tourist attraction in Derbyshire this week, the toilets are now all unisex. This would be fine if each was individual (eg a door from street and wash basins etc were in cubicle) but they are still behind doors that were obviously mens/ladies before change. I thought it wouldn't bother me, but i am aware my special needs daughter, and many others would feel unsafe coming out and bumping into a male when going to wash hands/put on make up/brush hair etc. I can't decide if it is unsafe or if this is a learnt behaviour from expectations of past history.
One thing i do know, when i went to a womens refuge to escape my violent ex, if he had chance to self identify he would have been in there like a shot (he told my solicitor i was incapable , as a woman, of making decisions (she was female!) and also told the judge a t the divorce courts the same!

The Gender Recognition Act 2010 allows providers to offer single sex provision excluding Trans people.

Logic, not 'login'.

(1) I am not 'obsessed' with anything.

(2) What have I misquoted? I asked a question about transmen, as you brought them up, as you usually do when the rest of us are talking about women feeling uneasy about having men in their spaces. A transman in a male loo is highly unlikely to be a risk to other men, so the issue doesn't really arise. If he wants to use a female loo, there is still a negligible risk, as he is a biological female - raising transmen in this context is a diversion.

(3) The example of you using a male facility because of crowds doesn't stand up, because of the crowds. That situation is not remotely similar to a woman going into a public loo in a park or car park, when there are few people around and she is lulled into a sense of security because she thinks there are only other women in there. Of course there could always have been a man lurking for nefarious purposes, but he risked arrest for loitering with intent, or committing an offence such as indecent exposure.

(4) I don't see being uneasy about men in female spaces as seeing transpeople as the enemy. Not at all. It is not a binary thing with 'enemy' at one end and 'not wanting to see someone naked' at the other. I have plenty of non-enemies, and many friends who I care for deeply, but would prefer they kept their clothes on.

(5) I see no login in your post - just diversionary tactics.

(6) I don't think that the issue is that children shouldn't see male bodies, so much as that men shouldn't expose themselves in front of children. That is to protect the men from accusations of 'flashing', or of intent to abuse the children, as well as to make those things less likely. It's about safeguarding, which always errs on the side of caution. Nine times out of ten it is not necessary, but it's worth it to prevent the tenth time from happening. If I'm right, you were a primary school teacher? Wasn't that sort of thing covered in teacher training?

You are unbelievable trisher Can you really be so disingenuous as to see a naked man with a partial erection in the female only part of a spa as no different to seeing a naked male in other settings? There is such a thing as context. If I go into a place where nakedness is compulsory, but I'm assured only females will be in that area, then I do not expect to see anyone with a penis let alone a partially erect one. That you seem to object to this rule says volumes!
What a very strange art college you attended. I've never heard of such prudery. What year was this?

Really Doodledog your obsession with misquoting or misattributing things to me is showing. I don't care which toilets transmen use anymore than I care which toilets transwomen use. I'm perfectly open to anyone using any facility they are comfortable in. I have used men's loos when the queue at the ladies was too long and nothing happened to me or any of the other women who did it.
My commitment to women and women's causes remains as strong as it always has been. I simply don't see transpeople as the enemy nor do I see any organisation promoting transrights as an enemy.
And keep up I said the butch lesbian's fears wouldn't be acknowledged because she worked for Stonewall and guess what? I was right!!!

I'm simply applying a little logic to the scaremongering and absolute unsubstantiated nonsense posted on these threads.

One thing does interest me. Why is it OK for a child to see a naked female body but not a male one? Many years ago when I was at art college male life models were required to wear a thing which concealed their private parts. Women of course were not. I always understood it to be part of the Victorian belief that women were too delicate to withstand the sight of a penis.We campaigned against it of course and all life models are now naked. But isn't it interesting that it seems the same now applies to children?

What risk do you think transmen pose to men in a male facility? No more than a biological man, surely, and usually less.

Again, we are seeing your feeling about women shine through the ‘trans rights’ concerns. We shouldn’t discuss things that might scare us, and heaven forbid that we ‘raise ideas’, never mind consciousness.

I don’t know what you mean by it not being worth mentioning Stonewall. Wasn’t it you that mentioned it in relation to the butch lesbian diversion?

Incidently transmen may be in the toilets now. You wouldn't know would you? and don't you believe they are women anyway so why would they need "dealing" with?

As I said why bother to mention Stonewall- she works for them so it couldn't have happened. If you can't see the dangers in proscribing what women should look like it is a great pity. Especially as I see on the city streets more and more people who are challenging gender norms.

It's a pity all you can find in that article is one sentence where the reporter has got things wrong.
I think it's a pity that Stonewall amongst others constantly push the false assertion that gender identity is a protected characteristic. I'm not at all sure I believe the account, it seems likely it's exaggerated. Much of what Stonewall puts out is a stranger to the truth, perhaps she has an agenda too?
We'll deal with the transman in the toilets as and when. Or we could have male, female and mixed sex facilities for transpeople and anyone else who was comfortable with them. If the majority of people aren't bothered the single sex facilities will be so underused as to become unnecessary.

Rosie51

trisher

inews.co.uk/news/uk/butch-lesbian-public-toilet-women-abuse-government-review-gender-neutral-facilities-833787
I know she won't matter of course because she works for Stonewall.
Personally I think any restrictions on anyone's appearance is wrong and the sort of fear mongering being promoted by threads like this is really far more frightening than any trans rights legislation.

trisher what an offensive opening sentence, the intention to insult and goad is obvious. Some of us think everybody matters, including those for whom separation from men is required/desired in certain circumstances. I have never encountered anyone being hostile towards a butch lesbian in the toilets but I won't deny it happens.
From the article you link to While a transperson’s right to use a toilet according to their gender is protected under the Equality Act Gender reassignment is one of the protected characteristics of the equality act, not self-proclaimed gender identity which is the clear implication Stonewall like to promote, and the lazy media can't be bothered to check.
Some of us think the safety, comfort and privacy of biological women matters even though you don't.

Rosie51 Stonewall have so often been criticised and condemned on these threads it really isn't worth mentioning them.
It's a pity all you can find in that article is one sentence where the reporter has got things wrong. I found quite frightening and disturbing information about how a woman is supposed to look

What I find totally illogical about all the arguments on transwomen using women's toilets and changing rooms is the fact that it doesn't actually solve any problem. It creates more.
So if transwomen are not to use women's facilities and have to use men's it is therefore logical and fair that transmen should use women's. So there will be people who look and present as men using women's toilets and changing rooms, which means that any predatory male wanting to enter such places is saved all the trouble of having to dress up as a woman. He can just walk in as a transman.

trisher

inews.co.uk/news/uk/butch-lesbian-public-toilet-women-abuse-government-review-gender-neutral-facilities-833787
I know she won't matter of course because she works for Stonewall.
Personally I think any restrictions on anyone's appearance is wrong and the sort of fear mongering being promoted by threads like this is really far more frightening than any trans rights legislation.

trisher what an offensive opening sentence, the intention to insult and goad is obvious. Some of us think everybody matters, including those for whom separation from men is required/desired in certain circumstances. I have never encountered anyone being hostile towards a butch lesbian in the toilets but I won't deny it happens.
From the article you link to While a transperson’s right to use a toilet according to their gender is protected under the Equality Act Gender reassignment is one of the protected characteristics of the equality act, not self-proclaimed gender identity which is the clear implication Stonewall like to promote, and the lazy media can't be bothered to check.
Some of us think the safety, comfort and privacy of biological women matters even though you don't.

Well no men wouldnt complain because the risk to them is less of course.
I dont think women are saying what other women should be comfortable with I think they are saying what they are uncomfortable with. So it's great if you for example are happy with those toilets but that doesnt mean that other womens discomfort (as you mentioned) doesnt count.

Galaxy

The study I have seen for changing room showed 2/3 of sexual assaults took place in unisex changing rooms, so they were much more risky than single sex facilities. I dont know if any studies have been done on toilets but wonder what the results would be and if it would be different. If toilets are individual cubicles with door to floor and sink inside , similar to disabled toilets then I think most people would be happy with that. But it's also not up to me to tell other women what they should be comfortable with.

Our new toilets are basically like disabled toilets, brick built, solid wooden doors and a sink. They also open onto pavement or prom so no coming out of a flimsy cubicle into a communal area secluded from passersby.

Plenty of people tell women what they should be comfortable with and in this case it seems to be other women, haven't seen anything about men complaining. I can't see how they could possibly be more dangerous than the old ones.

Did the study describe the changing rooms? Were they the ones with a flimsy curtains? I am assuming they weren't a communal unisex changing room. Neither would be anything like the same thing as the toilets I described.

The study I have seen for changing room showed 2/3 of sexual assaults took place in unisex changing rooms, so they were much more risky than single sex facilities. I dont know if any studies have been done on toilets but wonder what the results would be and if it would be different. If toilets are individual cubicles with door to floor and sink inside , similar to disabled toilets then I think most people would be happy with that. But it's also not up to me to tell other women what they should be comfortable with.

Galaxy

We should show concern about things that may not directly affect us though surely, I dont want women in prison to be raped even if I myself may never go to prison. I think it's quite important to take part in sport to be honest.

Including toilets doesn't mean we can't discuss other things but you don't think toilets are worth discussing despite the fact that most (all) of us use them at time and the change to unisex toilets does worry people. Being realistic about the advantages and reassuring people is a good thing isn't it? Or is there an agenda where we can't be positive about any changes that take away "safe" spaces for women although realistically the old public toilets were far from safe.

We should show concern about things that may not directly affect us though surely, I dont want women in prison to be raped even if I myself may never go to prison. I think it's quite important to take part in sport to be honest.

Galaxy

And yet again we are back to toilets which could be solved easily. But the issues of refuges and sport and prison not so much.

Well the OP opened this talking about toilets, most of us will us public toilets while a minority will use refuges, or go to prison. People don't have to do sport, they do have to use toilets.

If you keep insisting there are tons of men around dressing as women to access women's spaces you raise ideas in women's heads

Oh my giddy aunt trisher, the very last thing we want is for women to get ideas in their heads isnt it? A far better idea is to tell the little wimmin nothing at all, so that they don't get all over excited and start having independent thoughts about who they want to share their safe spaces with.
And what on earth have "butch lesbians" to do with men with a penis? Don't you know anything about lesbianism?

Bridgeit

Perhaps now is the time to add ‘ spaces ‘ ‘ toilets etc for those who identify as ‘non specific’ or the undecided.
Unfortunately public toilets rarely feel safe , especially at night or in less busy places.

I agree the old style toilets didn't feel safe and as for schools the toilet block was a terrifying place for any child who had experienced bullying. The new schools with individual toilets opening straight onto corridors are far safer but many people immediately object as they are unisex.

And yet again we are back to toilets which could be solved easily. But the issues of refuges and sport and prison not so much.

I live in a seaside town and all our toilets have been or are being changed. The old gotty blocks are going and the toilets are unisex but are all proper brick built with good solid doors and opening straight onto the pavement or prom. Some people don't like them but I think they are much better. If you went into the old blocks it could feel quite intimidating as if you went in at a quiet time you could feel vulnerable, how could you know who was lurking in one of the cubicles and the cubicles were flimsy. Much better now.