Don’t underestimate this u-turn

Perhaps we were fixated with being "told what to do" by the EU - even tho' were were among its most powerful members and had a seat at the 'top table' so to speak?

This very informative twitter thread lays out just what we did do in the EU. Initiated many of the institutions and rules that were vociferously complained about during the Brexit campaign. Yes, we were indeed influential.

twitter.com/EmporersNewC/status/1016761275295191040

We can vote out any political party here every five years.Therein lies the difference.

Septimia

^They know that leaving the single market has never been voted on by the British public, and a return would undoubtedly be welcomed by the vast majority. ^

I didn't vote to leave the EU (I didn't vote to stay, either, as I could see pros on cons for both) and I didn't vote to join in the first place.

I know that much of the process hasn't been handled well but I, for one, have no desire to rejoin a group where, I feel, we've never been welcome and where the 'one size fits all' system of regulations simply doesn't fit all.

There were always going to be teething problems with the leaving process, Covid hasn't helped, but it does seem there was a distinct lack of foresight.

I believe we, as a country - as ordinary citizens - were welcome in the EU. The animosity, such as it was, was directed at our governments who seemed not to want to be team players, but always demanding op-outs (as of course, was our right).

As for the 'one-size-fits-all' regulations - as far as trade is concerned that is a necessity... think of rules on safety, hygiene, etc. You can't allow different standards for different countries if you want to buy from a reputable market.

If you mean regulations like the Working Time Directive, well yes, we did have to abide by this rule. BUT, adults over 18 could still opt out of the max 48 hours for a definite or indefinite period if they chose to, it's just that employers couldn't force you to do so, or sack you because you refused. And in the 21st Century - is this such a bad thing? Should we, in this era of automation and technology, still be working under the same constraints as we did in the 50s?

Perhaps we were fixated with being "told what to do" by the EU - even tho' were were among its most powerful members and had a seat at the 'top table' so to speak? We'd rather be exploited by 'our own' than have Brussels telling us what to do...

That’s actually quite funny MaizieD ?although I liked the Matt cartoon better ‘If you can eat this sausage sarnie and drink this mug of tea you’ve passed!’ ( HGV testing Centre)

The government could get quite desperate.

Really? No idea? I guess emotional intelligence isn't for everyone.

the worriedwell
Before the pandemic, my DH needed to be taken into hospital as an emergency and the ambulance paramedics had no local knowledge at all, had come from further afield.Unfortunately they took no notice of my advice as to the route ( which I knew like the back of my hand) and relied on the sat nav.A big mistake. Am just pointing out that it all depends on where the nearest free ambulance is, as to who gets to you in an emergency.
Knowledgable local paramedics are always the best option, but if the the choice is being left on the floor for hours or the army being there soon, then that’s what you would choose.

Scones I have no idea what you are talking about, as to silencing.....we all have our own opinions on subjects and that’s all it is.We shall have to agree to disagree, although I will just add ( subject of ambulances) that the pandemic has put such a strain on ambulance drivers and the NHS that there was nothing wrong in NS asking for help, the army have helped out all over the UK in the last 18 months.

I worked for a large police force during the ambulance strike in 1989. The army did step in but they needed a police officer with them as they couldn't find places. Might be easier now with satnav but even then with an emergency would it be faster with someone who knows the area?

From what I was told by officers who were working with the army not all the army guys were well qualified, so not the same as a paramedic arriving more like a first aider. Might have varied but that was his experience. He had to point out that a teenager was in labour, she was denying it, her mother was saying it was impossible and the army guy accepted it. Good job our officer was good at fielding at cricket as he had to catch the baby as she tried to climb into the army ambulance, apparently a big step up. I think they believed him then.

lemongrove

Scones there is no need for touchy replies, and my comments were not a quick and inaccurate stick put down but trying to give a bit of balance.
Lack of specialist nurses are ( according to the BMJ) due to short and long term illness and some vacancies.
Lack of HGV drivers ( which is everywhere) is affecting refuse collections and self isolating drivers has added to this problem.
Nichola Sturgeon requested army help to drive ambulances, and this is what the army does during emergencies, and am sure the people of Scotland don’t mind who is driving as long as they are taken to hospital quickly.

Now you see, there you go again, straight in with the 'Touchy'. You do know you do this silencing thing with the 'touchy' or the 'Not so' don't you? I'm sure you can't or you wouldn't do it.

Anyway, to the issue in hand.

Your second post contradicts your first with regard to the causes of nursing staff shortages. You say 'some vacancies' the RCN suggested a shortage of 50,000 nurses even before Covid. That's a lot of 'some'.

This article explains the reasons behind the crisis in the Scottish ambulance service www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58588112. The 'emergency' has many contributing factors most of which are systemic failures in a system which has been neglected, underfunded and starved to the bone.

Unlike you I am unable to speak for the people of Scotland, but I imagine many of them would support a system that provides a functioning ambulance service which can accommodate extremis.

Scones there is no need for touchy replies, and my comments were not a quick and inaccurate stick put down but trying to give a bit of balance.
Lack of specialist nurses are ( according to the BMJ) due to short and long term illness and some vacancies.
Lack of HGV drivers ( which is everywhere) is affecting refuse collections and self isolating drivers has added to this problem.
Nichola Sturgeon requested army help to drive ambulances, and this is what the army does during emergencies, and am sure the people of Scotland don’t mind who is driving as long as they are taken to hospital quickly.

Are the IR35 rules going to be changed? Apparently, they are one of the main reasons (along with Brexit red tape) that foreign HGV drivers have given up on the UK.

This doesn't surprise me at all. This is the government of U turns. If I was a European lorry driver I'd tell them where to stick their temporary visa!

Scones

As I read it NotSpaghetti didn't present an assumption, she provided us with some evidence and posed a question.

The further anti-British narrative about drunken criminals was all your own imagining.

Thank you Scones

Lincslass have you actually ^read ^this thread?
Please go back and do so...
Then you will see that your statement (below) is absurd.

So the words of some Eastern European workers, suits your agenda to say all our countrymen are lazy. That is lazy assumptions on your part. Also quite inflammatory, like saying all Eastern European’s are drunken criminals. Much anti British narratives on here, still nothing unusual .

You are totally misreading.
... sorry to be so cross about it but I am not saying that at all.

Mine is a NO

Just one question ' if you were an East European HGV driver, would YOU come back' after all that is happened, and with no longterm security at all?

Yes

or

No?

As I read it NotSpaghetti didn't present an assumption, she provided us with some evidence and posed a question.

The further anti-British narrative about drunken criminals was all your own imagining.

NotSpaghetti

The Eastern European workers that I know well enough to have proper conversations with (all between 30 and roughly 55) say the British are lazy. One of them wished they could be lazy too as they felt guilty if they didn't give 100% and said that sometimes they feel really tired. One said "hard work is a badge of honour".

They all seem to be very diligent workers. These are the people who have been doing the jobs we don't want to.

I wonder if we were ever thought of as hard working? If so, what happened.

So the words of some Eastern European workers, suits your agenda to say all our countrymen are lazy. That is lazy assumptions on your part. Also quite inflammatory, like saying all Eastern European’s are drunken criminals. Much anti British narratives on here, still nothing unusual .

lemongrove

Scones

"I'm just fed up with every hiccup being a stick to beat the government with"

Current 'hiccups' include:-

The army driving ambulances is Scotland.
Chemotherapy being rationed due to staff shortages.
Waste collections delayed/cancelled due to staff shortages.
Petrol not being delivered to points of sale.
18% of people reporting not being able to buy essential food in the last week.
1,500 in hospital in Scotland purely because no suitable social care is available.
136,000 Coronavirus related deaths.

Stick-worthy hiccups.

Not so.
Staff shortages for delivering chemotherapy and waste collections are due to Covid.
Petrol ( no shortage) just BP having problems
Army helping out by driving ambulances....all good! That’s the government stepping up to the plate ( and NS requested it.)
We have just been through a terrible pandemic and yet it appears some people are outraged at the consequences....the same government got us all early vaccinations, remember?
They are not miracle workers.

A quick and inaccurate stock put down does not sweep away these issues.

Staff shortages for delivering chemotherapy and waste collections are not due to Covid. Read the facts about recruitment problems in the NHS and refuse services. This is a recruitment not an attendance problem.

"Petrol ( no shortage) just BP having problems". I didn't say shortage. I said petrol not delivered to point of sale. Do please read comments before responding with a set piece.

Army helping out by driving ambulances....all good! Really?

Vaccination is not relevant to the matter in discussion.

Please note that outraged and justifiably pointing out failings are not the same thing.

My goodness you would defend these ne'er do wells to the grave wouldn't you.

MayBee70

It was Thatcher that was very much in league with the road transport lot I believe. She was no fan of the railways.

The same Margaret Thatcher who thought it a good idea to buy gas from Russia

Lucky the government have COVID to blame instead of bREXIT

GrannyGravy13

We were out to dinner last night in a local Turkish Restaurant, we were talking with the Romanian waitress who has been there for two years. She intends to stay for another three years by which time she will have saved enough to go back home and by herself a house outright

To say that all Eastern European workers left in droves on 31/12/20 is somewhat erroneous.

No, but apparently an estimated 1.3 million have left.

The problem is that so many small towns aren't served by railways or canals. Goods would still need to be transferred from trains to lorries for local deliveries. Many of the old railway lines have now been built on.

Septimia

Maybe now is the time to stop putting all good into huge lorries which clog up our roads and put freight back on the railways and canals - and stop expecting everything to be delivered instantly (accepting that some things need to be).

Now this is certainly something I would agree with, 100%.

But it takes planning, foresight, intelligence, and lots of time- which this Government is clearly not able to produce. And people who do not expect Amazon next day delivery either.