The EU and Poland are on a collision course.

Well, yes, Alegrias, I agree that he problems were down to the Gvernment. But as the Government of the time was in favour of Remain it amounted to the same thing for those who were suffering.

The Remain campaign was pitiful. It did nothing to indicate how those difficult issues would be addressed. I’m afraid the majority of remainers were arrogant. They just didn’t think they could lose and they dismissed peoples concerns.

It wasn’t that they believed the Leavers. It was that they were at a point where they thought “Well it can’t be any worse”.

And although it is worse for those who were doing well in the EU, actually, even with Covid and everything else, quite a lot of people I know, in one of the main Leave areas, do think their everyday lives are better.

It could have been different.

Good grief. Putin will be rubbing his hands with glee over this.

CoolCoco

The contributions UK made to EU- we've already spent MORE on Brexit than the WHOLE of our 40 years membership - we weren't told that on the side of a bus.

Sorry, but as a remainer I cannot let possibly erroneous information go without checking further. Posting such claims undermines the argument that Brexit is a disaster!

fullfact.org/europe/online-cost-brexit-net-contributions/

CoolCoco

The contributions UK made to EU- we've already spent MORE on Brexit than the WHOLE of our 40 years membership - we weren't told that on the side of a bus.

How have we spent more on Brexit?

There’s also many instances wher Germany and France have broken the State Aid assistance.

Petera
Just one example of which there are many.
Please note that in the article the French state that the ruling
goes against the country’s constitutional identity

Very similar to what the Poles are saying.

www.politico.eu/article/france-data-retention-bypass-eu-top-court/

The contributions UK made to EU- we've already spent MORE on Brexit than the WHOLE of our 40 years membership - we weren't told that on the side of a bus.

25Avalon

Assumptions from Alegrias. I never thought low wages, dr’s appointments, over crowded schools were down to the EU and I doubt anyone who voted leave actually thought that. Most who voted leave were concerned about the large contributions the UK was making to the EU with little in return, the huge sums of money spent in Brussels, certain rules which we adhered to whilst other countries didn’t and the lack of sovereignty to name but a few. So, no I was not taken in by Cash Forage, Gove or Fox as you wrongly state. I made up my own mind. I was not duped.

"Most who voted" - assumption, unless you've talked to them

"Little in return" - examples please

"other countries didn't" - examples please

Assumptions from Alegrias. I never thought low wages, dr’s appointments, over crowded schools were down to the EU and I doubt anyone who voted leave actually thought that. Most who voted leave were concerned about the large contributions the UK was making to the EU with little in return, the huge sums of money spent in Brussels, certain rules which we adhered to whilst other countries didn’t and the lack of sovereignty to name but a few. So, no I was not taken in by Cash Forage, Gove or Fox as you wrongly state. I made up my own mind. I was not duped.

What I also wanted to say but got disturbed is I would give Scotland Independence tomorrow. I also think a lot of English people would if we were balloted, again who wants someone in a club who doesn't want to be they don't pull their weight
Take all the Trident nuclear submarines to Barrow the county could do with an input of income and research. When Sellafield was at its height there were more children passed their eleven plus per 100 in the nearby schools than most other schools in the country, mainly children of nuclear Scientists and research workers.
Where would Scotland get its forces from, all the regiments have been amalgamated, and expansionist Russia is ever-present in the north. Its natural resources its trade arrangements. IF they were allowed into the EU would they like a hard boarder in Northumberland and Cumbria like the Northern Irish are trying not to have. I live near two of the major artery roads to Scotland and see all the lorries heading to and from using the English ports.
Though I still think every country should be allowed to choose its own destiny so independence for any that want it including Poland.

One more post, then I'm off.

It's a dilemma; there were people who thought all their problems were down to the EU; low wages, difficulty in getting doctors appointments, overcrowded schools. But the EU wasn't the problem, the governments of this country were the problem. So Cash, Farage, Gove, Fox and the rest of them saw an opportunity to exploit their concerns and worries and to blame the EU for everything. So those people were taken in. But we're not allowed to say that they were duped, we have to say that its understandable. Well, its not.

I have no idea why your father voted Leave Zoejory. Maybe he wasn't taken in. Maybe it was conviction, I don't know. I don't think everyone was taken in, but enough people were.

If people would actually take time to read posts instead of immediately jumping on the bandwagon of the misunderstood and wrongfully maligned, they would have understood that the description of asinine was applied the idea that the EU is there to appease the Germans who want to run Europe and always have. Those people might try now to portray their comments as positive, but that's just disingenuous.

The ones who were lied to and exploited by the Vote Leave cabal.

What about all those people who had been quietly campaigning for years? Back in the 90s Bill Cash was the most Eurosceptic in the Cabinet, he formed the Maastricht Referendum Campaign

The referendum came from years of malcontent amongst many. Of course Farage came along and began banging on and the rest is history.

But it's wrong to suggest it was all to do with buses and lies about the NHS etc etc. Many people held these asinine opinions, as you call them. My father being one of them.

And may I suggest that type of language does not help. Not all who voted Brexit were racist, not all were stupid, not all at all.

It was good to have Germany at the centre of the EU for all kind of reasons, notably to promote peace as a goal in Europe.
not about appeasing them but making them a big part of something that could glue those European countries together and avoid future war.I'm happy enough for them to be there.
however, we can't ignore the history of the 20th century where major wars were instigated by Germany.
I certainly don't think they are out to get us, they are out to build up Germany.
a person can be sensible without denigrating other posters and how they chose to vote in a legitimate referendum.
the other side are not always 'deluded' Algerias.

Deluded ?

I will not be portrayed as the rude and dismissive one.

The "asinine opinions" are those expounded by people who think that the only reason the EU is successful is because it appeases the Germans, because after all it was the Germans who started the war. It’s just offensive and it explains how people in this country are consumed by demonising a country that they think is out to get us. When they’re not complaining about the French of course.

But yes, yes, the Remainers are the nasty ones. Poor old Leavers, picked on at every opportunity. We should have listened to the poor deluded souls who think that the EU is at the root of all their problems. The ones who were lied to and exploited by the Vote Leave cabal.

That doesn't make me arrogant, it makes me sensible.

I certainly wouldn't dream of saying that about all those who may well vote to leave the Union when Scotland has a referendum Jennifer ...whether I consider it a good move or not.It seems some things can be said about anyone voting to leave the EU bloc though....curious, isn't it?

Maybe, just maybe, if successive U.K. Governments had ignored subsequent EU directives, you know nodded in agreement and then done what they wanted to like some other EU Member States the outcome of the referendum might have been remain.

Just to be clear I voted remain.

But I’m afraid it was the arrogant, asinine attitudes of the other Remainers (not me of course) that led to so many people voting Leave.

If those who were doing well had listened to the people who’s lives were worse and done something to alleviate the problems. But they didn’t and the peasants revolted!

You see, you can’t help yourself can you Alegrias ?

Describing those who voted for Brexit as having ‘asinine opinions’

Can’t you see how rude and dismissive that sounds?

Yes, it is indeed peasblossom and as such was never a valid argument in the first place, since we will never know what the outcome would have been.
All that could be counted were the actual votes.The votes to leave outnumbered those to Remain.Some still refuse to accept that simple fact.

vegansrock

Over 50million British citizens did not vote to leave so why the pretence that the hard Brexit we've been dragged into has some sort of universal support.

I’ve been out and the discussion has moved on but I feel compelled to point out that since the vote was for Leave or remain, then 50 million people did not vote to stay ?

It’s an argument that works both ways. Isn’t it?

Alegrias1

^How can you call the EU, the biggest peacemaking project in recent years^

How many wars between what are now EU countries in the first 50 years of the last century, Yammy?

How many since?

How many before and De gaulle never wanted us anyway. He resented the help he had to accept from us and America during WW2. No wars because they are all watching their backs from each other not really a balanced way of producing peace.
Italy keeps wondering if they should leave.
Why join a club where you are unwanted and maybe there has been peace because there were still American troops in Germany for a very long time. They are all aware of Russian aggression and expansionism ,we do not count.

When did we vote about Nigerians?

‘How many wars between what are now EU countries in the first 50 years of the last century, Yammy?
How many since?’

I would attribute a peaceful Europe as such more to the rebuilding of post war states, industrial investment, massive state aid & recovery, peace keeping forces, & recalibrated political mindsets that took place before the emergence of the Common Market & eventually the EU.

The principal factors that lead to the effective 50+ years of war waged in & by European states are no longer exist or have been transcended by history, time & the theatre of conflict moved to another pitch.

It is not the EU alone & of itself that has achieved such relative peace in the past 50 years.

BTW, we’ll always have the Balkans....whatever states they may be in now.

MerylStreep we know from a number of polls that the Polish people do not want to leave. It is the authoritarian government that is clashing with the EU over the implementation of law.