Are we about to trigger Article 16?

MerylStreep

Why are the Swiss and Israeli scientists shocked.
This from the article.
Everyone is shocked, we’ve never seen anything like this. This is no good for us, no good for the field, and not good for the eu
That was from Klass Ensslin professor of Solid State Physics at ETH Zurich.
Much the same comments from Israel.

This happened to Switzerland before in the last EU Framework Programme for Research when they didn't allow free movement of Croatians after they joined.

So-called ‘guillotine’ clauses like this are common and the UK was responsible for agreeing to this possible sanction in Horizon Europe, and for actively supporting it in the previous programme. The government knew all about it, if they had taken the trouble to remember what they had dome themselves. The provision was there in the agreement.

As someone said to me, Frost is incapable of joining the dots, and there only are two dots.

Your last few posts are fiction. Did you write them for a laugh

Are you just beginning to realise this, growstuff?

Urmstongran

I get it Alegrias. The vast proportion of scientists like to cross- fertilise ideas. But I think even more would prefer the U.K. to dole out funds directly to them rather than have the EU top slice and then allocate funds to their competitors.

Galileo is not the first instance of the EU punishment mentality. If Boris expects his "friends and allies" to be nice he must be mad. To them Brexit is an existential threat and we must be destroyed lest others copy us.

Do you live in a parallel universe? You really haven't a clue. Your last few posts are fiction. Did you write them for a laugh?

Why are the Swiss and Israeli scientists shocked.
This from the article.
Everyone is shocked, we’ve never seen anything like this. This is no good for us, no good for the field, and not good for the eu
That was from Klass Ensslin professor of Solid State Physics at ETH Zurich.
Much the same comments from Israel.

Good try.

So that’s already happened? When we left.
Maybe Article 16 will improve matters. If it happens.
More negotiation. Different trade offs.

Deedaa

Urmstongran You don't understand how this works, Alegrias1 is quite right. British scientists wouldn't prefer to have money doled out by the British government, they would prefer to continue getting large EU grants to continue with their collaboration (not just cross fertilisation) with scientists around the world. DD used to apply for millions of Euros worth of grants for her work. This money has all but dried out and coupled with the loss of many of the EU students who would have come here to study research in this country is being seriously damaged. This is not "EU punishment" it is entirely self inflicted. The day after the referendum DD went into a meeting with her international colleagues. They all stared at her and said "What the fuck have you done?" Well now we know what we've done.

Spot on Deedaa.

Alegrias1 Nobody could actually believe all this guff about... Frost having a cunning plan?

I think that's a bit harsh, after all his boss has always been competely honest and above board about plans. You'll remember when he said “So I am announcing now - on the steps of Downing Street - that we will fix the crisis in social care once and for all with a clear plan we have prepared.”

I rest my case I'll get my coat

Urmstongran You don't understand how this works, Alegrias1 is quite right. British scientists wouldn't prefer to have money doled out by the British government, they would prefer to continue getting large EU grants to continue with their collaboration (not just cross fertilisation) with scientists around the world. DD used to apply for millions of Euros worth of grants for her work. This money has all but dried out and coupled with the loss of many of the EU students who would have come here to study research in this country is being seriously damaged. This is not "EU punishment" it is entirely self inflicted. The day after the referendum DD went into a meeting with her international colleagues. They all stared at her and said "What the fuck have you done?" Well now we know what we've done.

[sigh]

Probably not. But then, Article 16 is about so much more anyway.

Urmstongran you have no conception of how this works. None at all.

I get it Alegrias. The vast proportion of scientists like to cross- fertilise ideas. But I think even more would prefer the U.K. to dole out funds directly to them rather than have the EU top slice and then allocate funds to their competitors.

Galileo is not the first instance of the EU punishment mentality. If Boris expects his "friends and allies" to be nice he must be mad. To them Brexit is an existential threat and we must be destroyed lest others copy us.

We are not the only ones being shut out though, are we

Because it's their club and they can set their own rules.

Crikey, this is hard....

Alegrias1

MerylStreep

LincsLass
That you for posting the truth on this subject.

Are you accusing me of lying MerylStreep?

Before we left the EU, we were part of the scientific and technological consensus. We were integral to setting the rules. We took part in all the decision making and had we still been members we might have influenced the decision. But even if the decision had remained the same, we wouldn't have been a third country and there would have been no question of us being able to participate in the programs.

We wanted to leave the club. We can't complain that we don't get the benefits any more.

We are not the only ones being shut out though, are we. Why should a Scientific Journalist lie, and I the think EU started rattling sabres, certainly one President is very good at it.

MerylStreep

LincsLass
That you for posting the truth on this subject.

Are you accusing me of lying MerylStreep?

Before we left the EU, we were part of the scientific and technological consensus. We were integral to setting the rules. We took part in all the decision making and had we still been members we might have influenced the decision. But even if the decision had remained the same, we wouldn't have been a third country and there would have been no question of us being able to participate in the programs.

We wanted to leave the club. We can't complain that we don't get the benefits any more.

I agree Meryl
The EU has dragged it’s feet on this subject to keep us out.
We are not meant to ‘do well’ outside the bloc, by their thinking.

LincsLass
That you for posting the truth on this subject.

Lincslass

Alegrias1

This morning the Express reported that Britain was considering "withdrawing funding" from the Horizon, Copernicus and Euratom programs if Article 16 is triggered. Suggesting of course, that the EU will be bereft as a result of the withdrawal of our precious funding.

Except it's not true.

If we trigger article 16 we're going to lose access to these invaluable programs, but the scientifically illiterate government say we can have our own versions. Except we can't. Science programs of this size cannot be funded by individual countries and good though our scientists are, everybody's else are good too. Science thrives by the pooling and sharing of knowledge, and this will cut us off from the rest of the world, possibly irrevocably.

Global Britain they say. Lying incompetents.

Knew I had seen this somewhere, think you mean the EU is shutting us out, and others. So is it any wonder the express got hold of the wrong end of the stick. This is down to Brussels,
sciencebusiness.net/framework-programmes/news/israel-switzerland-and-uk-face-exclusion-major-eu-quantum-and-space

I know that facts are downgraded in light of some random person's opinions, but I can tell you without fear or favour that this whole debacle is due to us rattling our sabres and pretending to be able to go it alone.

Better faith??? From the UK that took years to negotiata the 'perfect' Deal and began to renege on it from day one?

The EU do not need the UK- 27 of them can supply and sell to each other, with the full support of the USA. They will very likely walk, 99% ... Russian roulette.

The EU do what suits them best and what they can get away with.....the UK will do the same.A compromise will therefore be reached.

Alegrias1

This morning the Express reported that Britain was considering "withdrawing funding" from the Horizon, Copernicus and Euratom programs if Article 16 is triggered. Suggesting of course, that the EU will be bereft as a result of the withdrawal of our precious funding.

Except it's not true.

If we trigger article 16 we're going to lose access to these invaluable programs, but the scientifically illiterate government say we can have our own versions. Except we can't. Science programs of this size cannot be funded by individual countries and good though our scientists are, everybody's else are good too. Science thrives by the pooling and sharing of knowledge, and this will cut us off from the rest of the world, possibly irrevocably.

Global Britain they say. Lying incompetents.

Knew I had seen this somewhere, think you mean the EU is shutting us out, and others. So is it any wonder the express got hold of the wrong end of the stick. This is down to Brussels,
sciencebusiness.net/framework-programmes/news/israel-switzerland-and-uk-face-exclusion-major-eu-quantum-and-space

It did cross my mind that we're being subjected to a wind up.

It's a thought that often occurs to me, Alegrias. I can't see, either, how anyone can believe all that nonsense.

lemongrove

Urmstongran

But remember, Article 16 not an exit mechanism.
It allows for suspension of certain protocols while talks continue.
In better faith.

This is very true and needed pointing out.

I hope you're not waiting for Johnson & Co to act in better faith. You'll have a long wait.

It did cross my mind that we're being subjected to a wind up.

Nobody could actually believe all this guff about the EU's intransigence and Frost having a cunning plan?

Even Baldrick wouldn't fall for that.

Urmstongran

But remember, Article 16 not an exit mechanism.
It allows for suspension of certain protocols while talks continue.
In better faith.

This is very true and needed pointing out.