Scrapping HS2 for those further north

Yes I live in Leeds. Moved here from London yonks ago after studying here. A very beautiful place and interestingly the centre of Great Britain ( the name of the largest island in the British Isles) a jewel right in the centre, who’d have known or guessed. I also have a son and family in Manchester and know what a nightmare getting there is. Either horrendous journey on M62, myriad accidents, full of fast lorries or a train journey so long that with crowded expensive connections both end added on, make it overly arduous.
Visiting my mum in London so much easier! Apparently it was quicker to go to from Leeds to Bradford by steam engine in Victorian times than it is today.
When you think how the Victorians built the underground system in London over a hundred years ago and how that enabled London, it is a disgrace. It’s what is needed in Leeds, because to destroy more of the beautiful Yorkshire countryside to build leeds overland ‘infrastructure’ will help no one. Yet that’s all that has been offered.
Most of all it the commitment to the future attracts more investment and involvement, that is where the damage is done. That lack of faith and commitment. Bad mistake.

Nfkdumpling. Labour were saying only last week that they would scrap the whole HS2 project. Then, as soon as the news broke about the northern section being scrapped they started bleating about broken promises.
There’s nothing to choose between the Tories and Labour.

I have never understood the north-south obsession. It is east-west that is needed; particularly across the middle of the country. I am in East Anglia and we always have to go into London and across to go anywhere. It would make far more sense to have a decent link to Birmingham and change there if necessary.

What gets me is when you see other countries transport systems they seem to be working together and effectively maybe they are subsidised but it must be worth the costs . We just can't get it right . We are a small country with a terrible transport system it's no wonder people use their cars rather than any form of public transport

As a resident of Derby, I feel it is easier to get to Parkway than to Toton. As a 'railway' town I feel that the original plan neglected us anyway!

growstuff

Dickens

ixion

I remember fondly an elderly lady interviewed on tv when HS2 was being mooted.
On being told that the new route/trains would cut ?90 minutes from the London to Birmingham journey time, she paused in thought for a moment.

Couldn't they just get an earlier train?, she asked...

... I know this is a serious issue, but that elderly lady's response gave me a chuckle. I mean, the logic is impeccable!

But, on a more sober note, it is another broken promise. This was one of Johnson's first pledges in 2019. At a visit to Manchester's Science and Industry Museum he said "I want to be the prime minister who does with Northern Powerhouse Rail what we did for Crossrail in London.”

Ultimately, what will it mean for the north of England? If you look at other European countries - or Asia - HS rail has a major effect on their economies.

"Most of our taxes seem to be spent on activities in the southeast, leaving the rest of the country out on a limb. No wonder the Redwall Tories are spitting feathers. I am too."

... yep, I can see why the OP is miffed...

That's the issue, isn't it? It's another broken promise. Moreover, Manchester has been told that its new railways will run overground, some on stilts, which will impact on the lives of people living in the areas where the lines are situated. Originally, the extensions were going to be underground. Grant Shapps told people, in effect, that they should be grateful for what they've got.

In that classroom where the list of "lessons to be learned" grows daily, I think we should add another. Don't trust a Party's Manifesto pledges or promises - look at its history instead. Apply to all Parties - in fairness, but Tory commitments in particular.

If voters elect a party on the basis of their promises and those pledges are systematically broken, then the electorate has to hold them to account.

This isn't just 'Tory bashing' on my part - even as a left-of-centre voter I have respect for some of the more honourable Conservative ministers (now banished). Johnson has conned the 'Red Wall' and the working class... those 'left behind', 'just about managing', 'ignored'... He manipulated them with fiery rhetoric and meaningless mantras. But he committed to a 'levelling up' - especially aimed at those in the north of England who've suffered decades of deprivation and impoverishment.

And now, he's stripped Transport for the North of powers after it criticises his rail cuts...

... there are definitely lessons to be learned here...

As usual, the money goes down south first and when it runs out the north is the last in line. I quite honestly think that HS2 itself was a huge vanity project with little advantage for the huge amount of money and damage that it has caused to the environment. No doubt though that plenty of people connected to the government will have profited from it so far.

I have always voted Conservative but won’t be at the next election if we still have this government that promises everything and fails to follow through on it. Migration, social care, environmental issues and the nhs are all in a mess that they seem unable to sort out. Throwing money at things doesn’t work. They need to use all the experience of older politicians from all parties to sort out this mess rather than a group of unexperienced yes men.

Sadly we seem to have no decent opposition party either at the moment which just allows Boris to carry on with empty promises.

The whole thing was not thought out properly. It should have been discussed more with the people living in the region rather than overspending unnecesssary billions forcing people out of their properties and blighting the countryside. Even if it had come in within budget it would still have been money which should have been spent on individual regions upgrading and replacing stock.
So much money is wasted and those who waste it should be held accountable.
Train fares are much to high to encourage a lot of people to travel by train as it is much cheaper for a family, to get in their car and drive to their destination.

My words seem to have been been twisted growstuff, of course I’m not arguing for industrialisation of mid Wales, nor am I of the opinion as you seem to be that rural areas don’t matter and we should all move (still can’t believe you really think that?). What I’m saying is that we should maximise the use of rail freight throughout the UK to get lorries off the roads as far as possible, and that Ireland is a key export route for the UK. HS2 was never going to achieve that, in fact it hasn’t been a priority - but it needs to be.

... just in... vindictive or what?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/transport-for-north-tfn-rail-b1960906.html?fbclid=IwAR0GrVWLLZc2YWxBsP3EWWwDiVQ2qyKzUFtlhFwMHeTXHXmC9lM-MA7gc3w

Dickens

ixion

I remember fondly an elderly lady interviewed on tv when HS2 was being mooted.
On being told that the new route/trains would cut ?90 minutes from the London to Birmingham journey time, she paused in thought for a moment.

Couldn't they just get an earlier train?, she asked...

... I know this is a serious issue, but that elderly lady's response gave me a chuckle. I mean, the logic is impeccable!

But, on a more sober note, it is another broken promise. This was one of Johnson's first pledges in 2019. At a visit to Manchester's Science and Industry Museum he said "I want to be the prime minister who does with Northern Powerhouse Rail what we did for Crossrail in London.”

Ultimately, what will it mean for the north of England? If you look at other European countries - or Asia - HS rail has a major effect on their economies.

"Most of our taxes seem to be spent on activities in the southeast, leaving the rest of the country out on a limb. No wonder the Redwall Tories are spitting feathers. I am too."

... yep, I can see why the OP is miffed...

That's the issue, isn't it? It's another broken promise. Moreover, Manchester has been told that its new railways will run overground, some on stilts, which will impact on the lives of people living in the areas where the lines are situated. Originally, the extensions were going to be underground. Grant Shapps told people, in effect, that they should be grateful for what they've got.

It might be a dream to get lorries off the road, but it's doubtful it will happen. Currently, only 13% of freight is carried by rail and it's the same situation in most European countries, with just a couple of exceptions, such as Germany. The decline is caused mainly by coal, the use of which is forecast to decrease even more.

ixion

I remember fondly an elderly lady interviewed on tv when HS2 was being mooted.
On being told that the new route/trains would cut ?90 minutes from the London to Birmingham journey time, she paused in thought for a moment.

Couldn't they just get an earlier train?, she asked...

... I know this is a serious issue, but that elderly lady's response gave me a chuckle. I mean, the logic is impeccable!

But, on a more sober note, it is another broken promise. This was one of Johnson's first pledges in 2019. At a visit to Manchester's Science and Industry Museum he said "I want to be the prime minister who does with Northern Powerhouse Rail what we did for Crossrail in London.”

Ultimately, what will it mean for the north of England? If you look at other European countries - or Asia - HS rail has a major effect on their economies.

"Most of our taxes seem to be spent on activities in the southeast, leaving the rest of the country out on a limb. No wonder the Redwall Tories are spitting feathers. I am too."

... yep, I can see why the OP is miffed...

But why would anybody invest in rail in a poor rural area, if there's little industry and, therefore, no goods to carry and few passengers? It doesn't make sense to make the huge capital investment needed for railways. I doubt if you're seriously suggesting industrialisation of mid Wales.

We are behind the times in the UK. As well as coal, steel, wood, oil etc. other countries use rail freight to ship consumer goods such as household cleaning products, batteries, and foodstuffs. Special cargo includes steel pallets, cars, oversized cargo, and products for which certain temperatures must be maintained. There are logistics challenges, but they aren’t insurmountable. Reading government reports leads one to the conclusion that HS2 is the right thing to do, but of course there are alternative ways of cracking the logistics issues. As we all know reports reach the conclusion the authors want them to. I’m making a general point here, which applies to the whole of the UK - but you do need to know a specific area or country to come up with locally appropriate solutions - for example creating a siding really isn’t a problem that can’t be overcome when you are building in a poor rural area, land is cheap and farmers need the money.
We need to get as many lorries as possible off the roads and onto the railways in my opinion.

Josianne

I'm not sure that transportation of freight by sea is as simple as it sounds either, especially as the cost of shipping has escalated. Added to that there isn't the capacity at the ports. Every morning I see several container ships bobbing out at sea just waiting to dock, (probably full of Christmas stuff from China!) Another area to improve before worrying about HS2.

HS2 isn't about freight. It's about improving services for passengers. FWIW I've never been in favour of HS2, but I am in favour of improving East/West connections (Liverpool to Hull) and other lines, where trains are already jam-packed and the services are slow, as part of regeneration of areas of the country, where transport is a major issue for people being able to find work.

Increasing port capacity is a separate issue.

Casdon

As I said earlier growstuff you obviously aren’t familiar with Wales, or you’d be aware that a lot of the track infrastructure is still in place, it hasn’t been built on as it isn’t industrialised, particularly in mid and west Wales - it’s reverted to farmland. The bridges are mainly still there, and the tunnels are still there - some of them have reopened as heritage railways. To preserve the little industry there is in West Wales the port is vital. Of course I know that some freight is now going the sea route direct to Ireland from Europe, although the Welsh route is preferred by many European countries because it’s cheaper so it’s picking up again now.
I can see we are destined to disagree on this.

But what freight would you have carried? Rail is most suitable for heavy goods, such as coal. Sidings need to be reinstated, if freight is to increase. Sorry! But I can't see it happening. Railways in mid and west Wales would have to be heavily subsidised. I don't need to be familiar with Wales - I just need to be able to read the government's own publications.

I'm not sure that transportation of freight by sea is as simple as it sounds either, especially as the cost of shipping has escalated. Added to that there isn't the capacity at the ports. Every morning I see several container ships bobbing out at sea just waiting to dock, (probably full of Christmas stuff from China!) Another area to improve before worrying about HS2.

As I said earlier growstuff you obviously aren’t familiar with Wales, or you’d be aware that a lot of the track infrastructure is still in place, it hasn’t been built on as it isn’t industrialised, particularly in mid and west Wales - it’s reverted to farmland. The bridges are mainly still there, and the tunnels are still there - some of them have reopened as heritage railways. To preserve the little industry there is in West Wales the port is vital. Of course I know that some freight is now going the sea route direct to Ireland from Europe, although the Welsh route is preferred by many European countries because it’s cheaper so it’s picking up again now.
I can see we are destined to disagree on this.

Freight can't be transported by rail where there's no track. Many areas of the country, including Wales, don't have the track. If they had in the past, much has been built on, including in my own small town. There also used to be a branch line to a processing plant - all covered now by housing. I can't honestly see much brand new track being built in the foreseeable future, especially in areas with mountains or areas of outstanding beauty.

PS. As far as freight from other countries to Ireland is concerned, it depends what happens with Ireland post-Brexit. Some ferry companies are already opening up routes from France and Spain to Ireland, which bypass the UK completely.

Different circumstances, location and proximity to cities though growstuff. There isn’t other industry so no threat.
www.mhpa.co.uk/the-port/
Freight could be transported on the same track as passengers in less populated areas, and much of it is manufactured in other countries now and comes over by sea to Southern English ports, and is transported by road to West Wales and then to Ireland.
I think we have to think laterally, there’s a huge amount that could be done to improve existing services without HS2.

PS. At the time, traditional dock workers weren't too happy about the introduction of containers and container ports because they killed off a whole industry.

Seaforth Container Dock caused mass unemployment for Liverpool dockers and the decline of the city as a working dock. There was a knock on effect for the huge number of shipping agents and insurance companies, which operated there.

I don't see how it's possible for most freight to be transported by rail. There was a time when some factories and processing plants had their own branch lines, but those have long gone. Usually such places are situated on the edge of towns/cities and, in any case, not right next to a station. HGVs would still be required to transfer goods to their destination, which means offloading and reloading. HGVs for the whole journey mean that transfer times are minimised.

I have fantasies about a rail network where everyone has a seat and never has to stand. Where you can travel easily to the station by public transport or where you can get off the train and then rent an electric car. And most freight is transported by rail. Wasn’t it Barbara’s Castle that thought her greatest achievement was introducing containers ( I need to Google that). But Thatcher hated the railways and wanted everything ti be transported by lorry. It always infuriates me to see Michael Portillo making programmes about rail travel when he was in a government that seemed to despise it. Annoyingly I really like his bloomin’ programmes.

Logistically, it's also better to have high speed mainline trains on separate track, maybe parallel to existing track.

It's a problem at the moment that freight trains slow down passenger services if they're on the track. High speed mainline trains also mean that local trains have to wait until the track is clear of express trains.

We need a government capable of long-term planning for transport services. Rail travel isn't feasible in some areas, so we need properly integrated services, including trains, trams and buses, which would provide for the needs of different sorts of communities. It would need to be subsidised, at least in the short term, to achieve its aims, until public transport is able to offer advantages over using cars and lorries.