Second home owners in Wales face soaring council tax bills after Labour-Plaid deal.

A lady on the radio today said she was glad of her second home as storm Arwen had left her house with no electricity so no light, heating or water (electrically pumped from a spring).

songstress That is a sweeping statement - that all second home owners are greedy vultures. Greedy for what?

We have a second home in France, a country where in many areas the countryside is littered with derelict unoccupied properties. Over the years, as the French have seen so many Britts but these properties and renovate them, they too have started to do the same thing.

While when French properties were first renovated in the 1970s/80s, many people brought over English workmen. By the time we bought our house in 1991, it was much more common for renovators to use local tradesmen. DH did most of the work on our house and in so doing has spent a fortune in local DIY stores and with specialist workmen, plumbers, roofers and masons. Not to mention surveyors and lawyers. When we visit we use local shops and patronise local restaurants.

There are places and areas, where the balance between second homes and local people is out of kilter - this is why we chose to buy in France not England, but to label all second home owners 'greedy vultures' because of problems in certain honeypot regions and towns, is ridiculous.

It's up to those who are selling their homes, not to sell them to someone as a second home songstress. Someone posted earlier on this thread how properties are often advertised as 'an ideal second/holiday home' Presumably the vendors don't have a problem with it, or who they sell too.

The last few posts have been explaining that neither your second home ownership nor your upbringing have anything to do with your value as a human being, but if you are determined to play the martyr, there's not a lot we can do.

I think I need a break from gransnet. Bit raw after being battered by the storm on Friday. Most of the holiday properties have been damaged: some quite badly. Thankfully no one has been hurt. Never before been made to feel like a pretty vile uncaring human being before….

How you spend your money is up to you.

But there is nothing intrinsically unselfish about living frugally in order to pay off your mortgage - that doesn't make you more or less caring than someone who doesn't, and has nothing to do with the situation whereby some people have more than one home and others are homeless.

It is you who is conflating the two things - not anyone on here.

That’s going back to the book I’ve read, How to be Good. Which is all about what makes a person good or bad but, as the book shows isn’t as simple as it seems. I didn’t really enjoy the book at the time but it’s made me ponder on the questions it throws up. My belief is that everyone should be given every opportunity to make the best of their lives; good healthcare, education, work opportunities etc etc. And my family has always paid our taxes to enable people to do that. But if you do work hard to achieve a lifestyle that makes you happy surely you’re entitled to spend that money in the way that you want to. I have neighbours that rent their property: I don’t know why they don’t buy a house given their rent must be pretty high. But they run two 4x4’s that we could never afford and would never want anyway, so why haven’t they used that money as a deposit for a house? However, it isn’t really my business how they deal with their finances. All I know is when I was their age I was living as frugally as possible and running ancient cars to pay my mortgage off. So I find it hurtful to think that people feel that I’m living my life in a selfish uncaring way. Especially when I do my best to share what I have with others.

MayBee70

Doodledog

I suppose that depends on whether you think that just about everyone else doesn't contribute to society.

So what should I do then? I spent the first 16 years of my life living in a back to back slum and literally dragged myself out of the gutter to be in the position I’m in now, so is that enough penance to forgive me for wanting to spend the last 16 years living somewhere beautiful.

Who's talking about penance?

What about all the millions of people who have dragged themselves through life, worked hard, contributed to society and aren't in the position you are? Are they you be denied the opportunity for smug righteousness?

I agree Doodledog.

So what should I do then? I spent the first 16 years of my life living in a back to back slum and literally dragged myself out of the gutter to be in the position I’m in now, so is that enough penance to forgive me for wanting to spend the last 16 years living somewhere beautiful.
I never said that anyone should do penance, or need forgiveness . I just don't see having a second home as something that is, or should be, a privilege of the virtuous.

Whether someone 'contributes to society' or not has nothing to do with whether or not it is acceptable to have more than one house. It's either ok, or it's not, and it's not a matter of judgement of individual cases - how could it be?

I don't think you should feel guilty about your 2nd home or have to justify yourself MayBee70. I understand your situation, thank you for explaining. Different people contribute to society in different ways.
I bought a 2nd home in Devon in my 20s when my parents both died and left a London property. An unfortunate, tragic event in my life. What else should I have done?
I feel I more than gave back to society in future years by giving away £1000s of free school places to several young children each year.
I don't expect a halo, but I would prefer people not to criticise the ownership of a 2nd home until they knew a little more about the circumstances.

good

Doodledog

I suppose that depends on whether you think that just about everyone else doesn't contribute to society.

So what should I do then? I spent the first 16 years of my life living in a back to back slum and literally dragged myself out of the gutter to be in the position I’m in now, so is that enough penance to forgive me for wanting to spend the last 16 years living somewhere beautiful.

growstuff

Urmstongran

We spent a family holiday over 30y in beautiful Salcombe ❤️
We thought then it was VERY posh.
We didn’t (don’t) have much money but quietly enjoyed eavesdropping conversations between rich folk and feeling somewhat inferior. Which was daft really.

Life’s rich tapestry eh?

Some of my nineteenth century ancestors lived in Salcombe. I identified the house they all lived in. They were poor fishing families and eventually the younger members of the family drifted to London for work and better pay. I used to have a dream about retiring to Salcombe ... until I saw the prices! If anybody had ever told my ancestors how much their house would be worth in the future, they wouldn't have believed it.

growstuff it is super expensive there now! Apparently it’s known as ‘Kensington-on-Sea’.
?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/how-the-county-of-buckets-and-spades-became-kensingtononsea-5370253.html

Monica we are saying the same thing, holiday lets are necessary for the tourist economy, I’d also prefer to see more holiday lets than second homes, but there should be limits as a percent of the number of homes available if villages are to thrive in future.

I was interested to hear your comment about there being lots of derelict and neglected houses in Wales Mattsmum2, are you referring to a specific area? I’m in the Brecon Beacons, and they are a rarity here these days, but maybe there are such properties in good supply somewhere else.

I suppose that depends on whether you think that just about everyone else doesn't contribute to society.

I’ve just finished reading Nick Hornby’s ‘How to be Good’ and, even though I’ve struggled with it a bit it has given me food for thought regarding this thread ie does owning a second home but having spent most of my adult life trying to contribute to society as much as possible still make me worse than just about everyone else that doesn’t own a second home? ( I do guilt very easily!)

In Wales purchases of a second home since 2018 has already meant an additional amount of land tax of 4%. This rises to 9% for £250,000 plus. My partner bought in Wales a few years ago and lives there as his main residence. A lot of the properties are derelict and in need of serious renovation as people have died and in some instances, never maintained the properties, I’m not sure why.
Differently I lived in Berkshire, commuter town, prices high and many young people cannot afford to buy or rent. Developers create a new housing estate where the minimum prices are over £300,000 and they somehow are able to renege on their pledge to build affordable social housing.
Who is right? Both prevent young people from buying or renting. There is no answer I can see that will work, and everyone has different opinions and thoughts.

Casdon The reason I separated holiday lets from second homes is that, while they should be grouped together in that both take houses from the lcoal housing market and drive prices up. In popular areas, holiday lets by being occupied for longer periods of time, do bring money and jobs into the area, while second homes are occupied for shorter periods so contribute little to the local economy.

In areas where tourism is not such a large part of the economy this matters less.

However, I do think that the best approach is to limit the number of houses than can be owned as holiday or second homes.

I feel like I'be been banished to the caravan

Holiday lets are much more lucrative than long term rentals, which is why young locals have to move out of the area they were born.

I don’t think equating a holiday let to a second home is comparing like with like though, because holiday lets are rented for most weeks of the year, whereas second homes are for the exclusive use of the owner and whoever they choose to rent to, so stand empty for a number of weeks each year.

I can understand why people try to justify their own personal circumstances as special, we would all think that. What this is about from the Welsh Government’s perspective though is to ensure that the contribution made by second home owners to the local economy is sufficient to enable communities to thrive, and for locals to be able to afford to live where they were brought up. It doesn’t preclude anybody from buying a house to live in as their primary residence wherever they like.

Surely the simplest thing to do would be to set a quota for what proportion of homes can be second homes. This could vary from area to area, dependent on where it is.

It could possible be in two groups. In high tourism areas the majority would have to be let out and occupied for a minimum number of weeks each year, else where houses being owned by second home owners would not have the requirement for commercial letting.

I don’t think that houses should be built on green field land but brownfield if possible. DH has just me that the local landowner is now, in fact, renting out his properties as holiday let’s and not to local people. But maybe there wasn’t the demand from local people to rent long term? I’ll ask him when I see him.

Well, that's a point of view, but with respect it is very much from the perspective of what a second home owner wants, rather then what is best for everyone. You have ignored the impact of second homes/holiday cottages/Air B&Bs on villages which are empty all winter, and the fact that in order to build enough homes for everyone to have one when some have two or more, green and brown belts will be eroded even more.

In my hometown, for instance, it seems that every blade of grass has a house on it - new estates are springing up all round what used to be a small town. The result of this is that schools, doctors and dentists are over-subscribed, the roads are choked with cars, and even the sewage system is under strain. Ok if you have somewhere rural to wind down in; but most people don't (and if they did, the problem of overcrowding would be even worse).

GraceQuirrel

Anyone here who has a sympathetic view on this thread is a second home owner!

And?