Stand off drowning migrants and report – or face prosecution, sailors warned

HillyN

Thanks for the explanation, growstuff , that sounds reasonable, but if they are already in our waters then surely they are technically in the UK and can't be being smuggled in?

Quite!

My understanding is that many of the people aren't being "smuggled" in. They're quite open about landing on UK soil and claiming asylum, which they are perfectly entitled to do.

The ones who are being "smuggled" are those who try to live under the radar, after coming in the back of a lorry or on a short-term visa etc, and work without permission, etc. It's very hard to do that because there are so many checks when people want housing or healthcare, etc. They're the ones who are really being exploited because they have no option but to work for gang masters and have no hope of a "normal" life.

With regard to the dangers in the English Channel, I think it unlikely that many, if any, of the asylum seekers realise the sheer treacherousness of the channel, particularly in the winter time. It is indeed a small body of water, and seen on a map, probably seems extremely narrow and safe to cross. They cannot have any idea of the dangers in one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world. It is only sheer good luck that we haven’t had tragedies such as this regularly. I hope we don’t have any more.

Thanks for the explanation, growstuff , that sounds reasonable, but if they are already in our waters then surely they are technically in the UK and can't be being smuggled in?

Josianne

*Alegrias*? I wasn't even thinking about Facebook, although even news stories abound on these kind of sites.
Whilst I respect your knowledge on facts and figures, I do not always understand why you are always so facetious about thoughts going on in people's heads.

Well its ridiculous Josianne. It wasn't me who brought up Social Media, by the way.

Anyway - so many ridiculous things are put forward to justify why these people should "know better", basically. If you or I were sitting in Calais, we'd know not to get on an inflatable to try to cross to the South Coast. We'd probably head back to the hotel and wait for a better day, or a ferry.

That is, unless we'd travelled thousands of miles with only the clothes we stand up in. Seen our homes destroyed and people we know killed. Be so close to our objective that we can actually see it, after goodness knows how many weeks travelling. And we'd paid goodness knows how much to the people traffickers. And we'd seen people just like us departing on small boats, only to arrive in England. And maybe phone us on our mobiles to tell us they'd got there, and that it was possible.

HillyN

Sorry if I'm being thick, but why can't sailors rescue people in danger of drowning and take them back to France? Then they wouldn't be people smuggling, just helping people in peril.

It depends which country has control of the water they're in. If they're in British water, the people must be brought to the UK.

Josianne

*Alegrias*? I wasn't even thinking about Facebook, although even news stories abound on these kind of sites.
Whilst I respect your knowledge on facts and figures, I do not always understand why you are always so facetious about thoughts going on in people's heads.

Because thoughts going on in people's heads sometimes need some reality and context outside the person's own little head.

Sorry if I'm being thick, but why can't sailors rescue people in danger of drowning and take them back to France? Then they wouldn't be people smuggling, just helping people in peril.

Sparklefizz

growstuff

Why is it shocking that Weston Super Mare has built housing? No town is pickled in aspic and vying for chocolate box cover of the year. Towns aren't just for tourists.

Of course not! Don't be ridiculous. You have conveniently misinterpreted my post.

Have I?

Maybe you didn't express yourself very well.

Josianne

^ How many of us know the status of bodies of water thousands of miles away from our homes?^
Even I know there are sharks off the coast of Australia and that's a few thousand miles away.

For goodness sake! Poke a hole in whatever bubble you reside.

Imagine you've just travelled thousands of miles and have ended up in miserable conditions in a camp. Imagine what your mental state would be. It's not hard to imagine that you mind be feeling pessimistic about your future and maybe even suicidal. Somebody comes along and offers you a hope of reaching somewhere better. Even if the risk of dying is high, it's probably less than doing nothing.

growstuff

Why is it shocking that Weston Super Mare has built housing? No town is pickled in aspic and vying for chocolate box cover of the year. Towns aren't just for tourists.

Of course not! Don't be ridiculous. You have conveniently misinterpreted my post.

It's inhuman - a bit like the policies of the many countries that asylum seekers want to escape from. Seriously, is anybody going to watch a person or child drown without trying to help? Even those who say they would probably wouldn't walk away or am I being too generous?

The Great Escape is fascinating isn’t it Josianne ?
We’ve all seen the Steve McQueen film and this docu/drama shows how accurate it was. Last episode tonight.
Sorry I digress!

Alegrias? I wasn't even thinking about Facebook, although even news stories abound on these kind of sites.
Whilst I respect your knowledge on facts and figures, I do not always understand why you are always so facetious about thoughts going on in people's heads.

Josianne

^ How many of us know the status of bodies of water thousands of miles away from our homes?^
Even I know there are sharks off the coast of Australia and that's a few thousand miles away.

What do you know about the Backstairs Passage?

No googling please.

Why is it shocking that Weston Super Mare has built housing? No town is pickled in aspic and vying for chocolate box cover of the year. Towns aren't just for tourists.

Sparklefizz

^We are behind France Germany Italy Spain in the numbers of asylum seekers we take.^

Has no one noticed how much bigger these countries are than the UK? There is no comparison. England is the most densely populated country in Europe.

Last month I went to Weston Super Mare, which used to be a smallish seaside town in the West Country. I hadn't been there for more than 10 years and was astonished at what had been done to it .... miles and miles of cramped housing estates all looking exactly the same. It was shocking.

Of course we feel compassionate about what has been happening but we cannot rescue the whole world. The population density in Europe is 34 people per sq. km. Alegrias will leap in to point out that some of this land is mountainous and uninhabitable, but so are areas of the UK. The population density in England is 426 people per sq km.

Even accounting for geographic area and population, the UK still takes fewer refugees than some other European countries - and other countries such as Turkey and Uganda.

Josianne

^Also, if you come from a few thousand miles away, how do you know how dangerous the Channel is?^ I assume they have access to social media and can read, maybe they even have mobile phones. How else would they organise their passage?

Yes, of course. Sitting in a cold damp tent in Pas de Calais, desperately hungry and with no hope, I'd be on Facebook every day.

Forsythia

I think you are all worrying needlessly as many interviewed today said they will still come, no matter what happened yesterday, and theyve already paid their 2000 euros in order to do so. Therefore, plenty more will be arriving shortly. Some had travelled from Belarus where they paid 2000 euros, on to France another 1000 euros, channel crossing another 2000 euros. So for one person that is 5000 euros.

Why is worrying about people who could very easily drown needless?

JenniferEccles

I find it hard to understand the mindset of migrants boarding these hugely overcrowded inflatables. Wouldn’t warning bells have rung? They were already in a safe country, France so they had fulfilled their desire for safety.

What do we offer that France, or all the other safe countries they passed through don’t?

That’s the crux of the matter.

I believe there’s talk of doing what is obvious, and that’s to make it clear that boat migrants will automatically have their application refused,

As far as I can see it’s the only way to stop this influx, and of course stop the tragic deaths in the Channel.

Firstly, the UK doesn't offer many people anything which other countries don't. That's why some other countries accept more refugees than the UK and the UK isn't even in the top five.

Secondly, (and this has been mentioned umpteen times), some refugees are more likely to speak English than other languages, some have family already in the UK and , for some, there have been historic, colonial links.

Why would "boat migrants" have their applications refused when there is no other way for them to reach the UK? That's inhumane and contravenes international law. They have done absolutely nothing illegal. It is not illegal to travel to the UK by boat and it is not illegal to disembark. They have a legal right to claim asylum. Refugees only become "illegal" if they have their application for asylum refused and still remain. How difficult is that to understand?

I think you are all worrying needlessly as many interviewed today said they will still come, no matter what happened yesterday, and theyve already paid their 2000 euros in order to do so. Therefore, plenty more will be arriving shortly. Some had travelled from Belarus where they paid 2000 euros, on to France another 1000 euros, channel crossing another 2000 euros. So for one person that is 5000 euros.

We are behind France Germany Italy Spain in the numbers of asylum seekers we take.

Has no one noticed how much bigger these countries are than the UK? There is no comparison. England is the most densely populated country in Europe.

Last month I went to Weston Super Mare, which used to be a smallish seaside town in the West Country. I hadn't been there for more than 10 years and was astonished at what had been done to it .... miles and miles of cramped housing estates all looking exactly the same. It was shocking.

Of course we feel compassionate about what has been happening but we cannot rescue the whole world. The population density in Europe is 34 people per sq. km. Alegrias will leap in to point out that some of this land is mountainous and uninhabitable, but so are areas of the UK. The population density in England is 426 people per sq km.

^ How many of us know the status of bodies of water thousands of miles away from our homes?^
Even I know there are sharks off the coast of Australia and that's a few thousand miles away.

Gabrielle56, why assume that they are not asylum seekers? Plenty of data on this thread to show that in fact they are just that. And who is offering just tea and sympathy? How do you know what we all do for others, when we are not tapping away here? Maybe some of us actually do put our money to use helping others. Yes, something IS needed, and it is not a Home Office run by that daughter of asylum seekers, welcomed into the UK in the 1970s.

Lucca

A couple of things I heard on the news at lunchtime from Peter Walsh from Oxford university
1. You cannot claim asylum in the UK unless you are IN the UK

2. We are behind France Germany Italy Spain in the numbers of asylum seekers we take.

He's right.

Also, if you come from a few thousand miles away, how do you know how dangerous the Channel is? I assume they have access to social media and can read, maybe they even have mobile phones. How else would they organise their passage?