Stand off drowning migrants and report – or face prosecution, sailors warned

I entirely agree that we need people to do the unskilled jobs Brits - even unemployed ones - seem to think are beneath them and also skilled workers. Plenty needed in agriculture round here for instance. But whilst we need to replace workers and potential workers lost for any reason, the Covid argument, apart from being diststeful, just doesn't hold water without data as to the number of economically active, or potentially active, people who have fallen victim to Covid.

It seems to be my fault that anti migration posts are on my FB feed. Hmm. The thread in question was on a BBC news article about the recent deaths in the channel and certainly wasn't because I have friends who are raving anti immigration. Not that I need to explain to anyone.

It is a fact that we have lost 2 groups of people, in the last couple of years. She never said they were all economically active. The second group, EU workers, certainly were. And it is clear that the unemployed Brits have no wish to take on the jobs they left behind.

Not at all- her comment was factual- in direct response to the 'Britain is full' argument seen again and again.

Your friend is scraping the bottom of the barrel with such a comment. I would be ashamed, not proud. However perhaps whilst she's scraping she might like to produce evidence of the number of people of economically active age who have died with covid and need to be replaced. I would hope she realises that a great many of those who have died were well over retirement age.

I was out all day and babysitting till late last night.

My friend was looking at facts, and it is a fact, desperately so, that 1000s have died of Covid. Her comment was part of a direct factual answer re 'Britain is full', and made total sense. The other part was that 1000s of EU hardworking people have also left, leaving huge gaps in essential jobs for the UK care sector, agriculture and more.

She didn't 'drag' Covid deaths into the conversation for the sake ot it- but as part of the full and realistic situation we currently have. And yes, I am proud of her and her insight.

Kali2

As my young friend wrote yesterday, the UK desperately needs young people, to replace those who have died of Covid, tragically, and those who have left because of Brexit.

These people could be welcomed to fill vacancies- especially as it is now very clear that unemployed Brits who complained bitterly about their 'jobs being taken from them' - have no intention whatsoever of doing them!!!

Some of those Brexiters will now shout- ah but we didn't mind the Europeans, its them others we didn't want'- well it is a bit late for that, I'd say.

As for the NHS being totally overwhelmed - it has nothing to do with migration!

I remarked yesterday that it is very distasteful to bring Covid deaths into this, though you said you were proud of what your friend had written. I asked if you were proud of that part. You chose not to reply. You now seem to be adopting the argument yourself.

Exactly!

The fact is, Brexit was NEVER EVER going to stop those desperate people from war torn zone from coming- but it has stopped EU hard workers from doing the jobs the Brits don't want to do- and pretended were 'stolen' from them (we now know that was NOT the case).

Dickens As far as I can discover you can use drones in France, but not to survey people or sensitive sites.

Lincslass

Believe extra drones , and other navigational aids to help catch these smugglers, have been offered by the UK, one ex Navy chief was saying. All help been turned down by the French.

Given the anti-French rhetoric emanating from this government, it's hardly surprising our offer has been turned down.

... and France is as precious about its sovereignty as we are.

Also, certain laws and regulations would have to be put in place to govern the behaviour of our military / police on foreign soil. We are now a third country, no longer a partner.

Put the boot on the other foot - how willing would Britain be to allow the French to patrol our borders do you think?

As my young friend wrote yesterday, the UK desperately needs young people, to replace those who have died of Covid, tragically, and those who have left because of Brexit.

These people could be welcomed to fill vacancies- especially as it is now very clear that unemployed Brits who complained bitterly about their 'jobs being taken from them' - have no intention whatsoever of doing them!!!

Some of those Brexiters will now shout- ah but we didn't mind the Europeans, its them others we didn't want'- well it is a bit late for that, I'd say.

As for the NHS being totally overwhelmed - it has nothing to do with migration!

maddyone

I don’t feel that I should have to justify deleting my account because others think I was friends with a lot of people who hate asylum seekers. I wasn’t, and I didn’t.

You don't need to justify anything maddyone, of course not. If you don't want to have FB, that is your choice and nobody should criticise you for it.

I was Facebook friends with a former work colleague in the US who turned out to be a rabid Trump supporter with anti vax views. So I unfriended him.

But there are often posts on here saying how terrible FB is from people who then to on to tell us they've never had an account. Or that FB is full of people ranting about asylum seekers or foreigners. The algorithm decides what you want to see based on friends and likes. I get Maine Coons and wool shops

My FB is a big mixture- friends and relatives from UK and all over the world, far and wide. Nature, wildlife and gardening groups.

And pro EU groups and lots of young people, friends, relatives and ex 6th Formers who have kept in touch - and who are disgusted by what is happening in the UK now, their future seriously put at risk, and the xenophobia and anti- immigrant (all of them ... irrespective of status or origin...) sick rhetoric.

As for easy solutions - what did some of you expect the French police to do- shoot the dinghies, shoot ...what?

''The people who think the solution is to make crossings harder and more dangerous are the same sort of people who thought we could solve the drug problem by denying addicts clean needles.'' (a great comment on FB today.)

I don’t feel that I should have to justify deleting my account because others think I was friends with a lot of people who hate asylum seekers. I wasn’t, and I didn’t.

Alegrias1

Just a quick comment about Facebook.

This morning my Facebook page is filled with pictures of Maine Coon cats and information about from my local wool shop. And a post from a friend who has just had a nice life changing event.

If your Facebook is full of people ranting about foreigners, its because these are the sort of people you know. Or your Facebook friends associate with them. Or you have interacted with a posting that supported that kind of thing.

There are infinitely more radical and ranting people on GN than I have ever seen on Facebook, and here, you can't unfriend them.

My Facebook account was never about people ranting about asylum seekers, but I have found that some people are quite unkind on Facebook. My husband’s American cousin who admires Trump for example. People who unfriend you because you went on holiday, and other stupid things. I can’t be doing with it as I joined in order to remain in touch with ex colleagues and family who don’t live locally. Facebook is also full of adverts which I got fed up of seeing. And so I deleted my account, it is a nasty place.

Urmstongran

Puncture the rubber dinghies perhaps before they are put in the water?
Use drones instead of gendarmes?

... they do - they slash the dinghies completely... punctures can be repaired. In fact, there's photo's of such dinghies on the beach, and of the unfortunate migrants queuing up waiting to be bussed back to the asylum centres.

The media is a bit selective in what it chooses to print...

As for drones - I'm not sure, but I believe a French judge banned their use because of France's privacy laws - which apply to everyone. You can't film people without their permission, basically. Not even anti-government demonstrators...

JenniferEccles

The difference in your case of course Alegrias1 is that you didn’t turn up on a French beach having clambered out of a dinghy and expect to be housed, fed, payed an allowance, all courtesy of the French taxpayer.

I’m guessing you had secured yourself a job and accommodation before you arrived.
That’s the difference.

As asylum seekers/ refugees they are entitled under international law.

That is because people who wrote those laws with the world’s consent understood about moral rectitude.

Auf Wiedersehen Pet

A friend of mine got into a lot of trouble financially nearly 30 years ago. Left the UK hurriedly on April 4th and ended up in the South of France where he has made a successful career ever since. Economic migrant fleeing British Authorities - or Expat - you decide.

The difference in your case of course Alegrias1 is that you didn’t turn up on a French beach having clambered out of a dinghy and expect to be housed, fed, payed an allowance, all courtesy of the French taxpayer.

I’m guessing you had secured yourself a job and accommodation before you arrived.
That’s the difference.

France, Germany, Switzerland and the whole of EU are full of migrant Brits- who did exactly this. Before Brexit, they could come for 3 months to look for a job- and benefits could be transferred too.

When I moved to France a couple of decades ago I was looking forward to doing well in a new career.

Does that make me an aspirational migrant?

The article does not use the term "illegal migrants" generically or to refer to people who are asylum seekers. The journalist has spent 24 years covering the story, talking to people in the camps and to senior ministers on both sides of the channel.
In that time there have been many waves of migration of many kinds (including us).

Urmstongran

^They ARE NOT MIGRANTS^

Well the article Mamie posted a link to actually called them. “illegal migrants” (which I did not, note). I’ve started calling them ‘aspirational migrants’. The article pointed out that many of those coming herehave had their asylum status rejected by the EU.

In that case what is your preferred term WWmk2?

We must be very, very careful with the language we use as nothing is more powerful than language and it’s misuse. Farage is a past master at that as you well know.

Do not think that Johnson made a mistake in using the term “illegal migrants” it was quite deliberate and used to control the narrative for his own agenda, because he knows that people accept his use of language without criticism.
They are asylum seekers, an entirely different concept in law.

They are seeking asylum from the atrocities we are hearing about on a daily basis being committed in Afghanistan, Somalia and so on.

once they are granted asylum their status becomes

Refugees - a refugee is a person escaping war, persecution or natural disaster.

That pretty much sums them up I would have thought.

Here are the laws that give people protection should they be so unlucky enough to become a refugee..

The rights of migrants, refugees and asylum-seekers are protected by international law, regardless of how and why they arrive in a country. They have the same rights as everyone else, plus special or specific protections including:
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (Article 14), which states that everyone has the right to seek and enjoy asylum from persecution in other countries
The 1951 UN Refugee Convention (and its 1967 Protocol), which protects refugees from being returned to countries where they risk being persecuted
The 1990 Migrant Workers Convention, which protects migrants and their families
Regional Refugee law instruments (including 1969 OAU Convention, 1984 Cartagena Declaration, Common European Asylum System and Dublin Regulation)

Whitewavemark2

vegansrock

If the tables were turned and there were migrants travelling through the U.K. on the way to somewhere else- would we be inclined to stop them?

? Patel would provide a ferry service free of charge.

Don't worry, she'd put Chris Grayling in charge of sourcing the ferries