Relationship between France and UK

I have no idea whether the whole world is watching or not, but I can assure you that Johnson's doings are regularly reported in the Danish Press - factually and usually in a way that leaves the listener or reader to make up their own minds about whether his behaviour is suitable for a prime minister, or not.

Likewise, the drowning of 27 refugees in the channel was reported, as was the fact that the French were willing to offer these refugees homes and work in France, but that the refugees are apparently still convinced that the UK is a land of plenty and of freedom and much, much better than anywhere else and are therefore determined to get to Britain.

Whether you like it or not, Britain is now a "third country" seen from the EU's point of view, so if you try to turn the refugees who survive the crossing of the channel back to us, we are fully justified in refusing to take them in. They could and should have applied for asylum in the first EU country they entered, whether it was Spain, Greece, Italy, Hungary or anywhere else.

Whether the EU will refuse to take in any refugees the UK refuses entry to, I do not know, not having had the opportunity to find out what the recent conference amongst the EU countries who have a sea coast facing the UK has concluded.

Our problem is we don't seem to grow politicians of any real stature and statesmanlike qualities any more whatever party one thinks about.

What's the point of 'growing politicians of any real stature' when the electorate are quite happy with a clown?

Most French friends I spoke to thought Brexit was a bad mistake by the UK and I think they are right. Boris of course has to pretend it was a brilliant idea, supported by most of the press. He's not a clown despite his behaviour: he is a clever and ruthless operator who used Brexit as a staging post to the PM job regardless of the impact on the rest of us and the pandemic has been a useful cover for the deficiencies of Brexit. Our problem is we don't seem to grow politicians of any real stature and statesmanlike qualities any more whatever party one thinks about.

'Ils ne boxent pas dans la même catégorie' - they are totally on a different level.

Kali2

twitter.com/AlexTaylorNews/status/1466122815464169476?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1466122815464169476%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fvoxpoliticalonline.com%2F2021%2F12%2F04%2Fthis-french-critique-of-borisjohnson-is-bitingly-accurate-how-others-see-us-video%2F

I do wonder if any of you have actually clicked on this on French TV - just one of the many- but it certainly made people talk! And laugh too, like the other journalists /politicians on the panel.

MerylStreep

Maggiemaybe
Maybe it’s just in the Swiss press. ?

Not at all. Although it is particularly relevant in Switzerland now- as they are in the middle of making a similar, terrible, mistake. Geography is also massively important in this case, just as, but totally differently, as for the UK.

MerylStreep

I wonder why the whole world is looking at us when, according to some, we have no standing on the world stage.
It’s one or the other, isn’t it.

Because Great Britain was very important and was very respected. Many of the articles and TV news and interviews, etc, on European TV channels- express a mix of dismay, but also to some extent of shock, that Great Britain has sunk so low, and has chosen a PM who is considered now as worse than Trump. Believe me or not- I truly am not bothered.

I agree Petera that it shouldn't be a point scoring exercise on either side because anyone can come up with press stories and videos to suit their side of the argument. The scales appear to certainly be tipping the wrong way for the UK at the moment, and yes by our own undoing. I would just be dismayed to think all my European acquaintances wanted to hurl insults about whoever were the PM, whatever his shortcomings, every time I saw them. I would think they were obsessed and as you say just looking to play a crude game of one upmanship.

Josianne

Take this as an example form earlier in the thread:
Same with ALL our friends- from Uni Professors, business men and women, farmers, engineers, butchers, bakers, builders, CEOs of major companies ... they ALL know what he is up to- and they ALL say he is mad as a hatter!
I think that is what is being discussed is all exaggeratiio here.

As an aside, I may not have so many friends in France, but the one I respect the most most is one of the highest authorities. A contre-amiral in the French navy, and yes I was present when he was decorated by Giscard d"Estaing. This wise, now old man, had many conversations with me during the Brexit time and was humble enough to even say that the French needed us far more than we needed them in terms of Defence.
I am all for hearing different views, but lumping the whole argument under the bad heading is totally false reporting and a joke.

Your friend is very probably correct but it's still a very weak argument for leaving. Nearly all relationships are unequal, that does not mean they are not mutually beneficial. I probably need my DP more than they need me, but they still need me.

The flaw the Brexiters commit all the time, in this argument and in many of the others they propose (and I'm not necessarily lumping you in this camp Josianne), is that it's a zero sum game. Or to put it more crudely, if France is gaining something we must be losing something.

Josianne

I think in terms of cyber security and international intelligence France does depend on the UK to a great extent. We are actually the leading nation in this field.

Under the little known LHA. Which I believe has not been changed throughout Brexit.

Alegrias1
whether it is true or not It is.

Thank you Alegrias. I will send you my Christmas card, which I am convinced Boris stole the idea from!

Then I apologise that I have misunderstood Josianne.

I think in terms of cyber security and international intelligence France does depend on the UK to a great extent. We are actually the leading nation in this field.

Alegrias1

Whether its true or not that the French need us as part of their defence strategy, what is the implication?

That the Elysee Palace are so frightened that we'll take our defence capabilities away that they are trying to make our life difficult?

Sacre bleu.

Every EU person I know, French, Swedish, Spanish, German.... are incredulous at what we've done.

Are you sure we are talking about the same thing here Alegrias1? I was citing conversations which contained no accusation, nor recriminations on either side. It was a privilege to be part of such fair minded discussions.
The all guns blazing comments would have served little purpose.

This agreement is outside of NATO.

Financially we commit more to the Defence budget than France. Who want a stronger EU profile and need our money to do so.
I dont know where Germany or other EU countries stand on this issue.
Maybe others can enlighten?

France has always been independant on Defence, at present it is not a full NATO member, although it does contribute to NATO operations. That plays well with voters, independence and nationalistic, but still benefiting from being allied to a larger Defence group.
How much it depends on the UK is debatable, we now have a much smaller capability than in the past

My OH has just read a short story by Christopher Priest, written in 1974 in which the UK has left the EU, things have gone horribly wrong and the country is applying to become the 51st state of the USA. Perceptive?

Whether its true or not that the French need us as part of their defence strategy, what is the implication?

That the Elysee Palace are so frightened that we'll take our defence capabilities away that they are trying to make our life difficult?

Sacre bleu.

Every EU person I know, French, Swedish, Spanish, German.... are incredulous at what we've done.

Josianne

Take this as an example form earlier in the thread:
Same with ALL our friends- from Uni Professors, business men and women, farmers, engineers, butchers, bakers, builders, CEOs of major companies ... they ALL know what he is up to- and they ALL say he is mad as a hatter!
I think that is what is being discussed is all exaggeratiio here.

As an aside, I may not have so many friends in France, but the one I respect the most most is one of the highest authorities. A contre-amiral in the French navy, and yes I was present when he was decorated by Giscard d"Estaing. This wise, now old man, had many conversations with me during the Brexit time and was humble enough to even say that the French needed us far more than we needed them in terms of Defence.
I am all for hearing different views, but lumping the whole argument under the bad heading is totally false reporting and a joke.

Josianne Defence isnt often discussed in the press or on GN., but as I understand it your CA is correct.
Some times it serves to divert attention and use the press to do so.

sorry for typos on phone.

Take this as an example form earlier in the thread:
Same with ALL our friends- from Uni Professors, business men and women, farmers, engineers, butchers, bakers, builders, CEOs of major companies ... they ALL know what he is up to- and they ALL say he is mad as a hatter!
I think that is what is being discussed is all exaggeratiio here.

As an aside, I may not have so many friends in France, but the one I respect the most most is one of the highest authorities. A contre-amiral in the French navy, and yes I was present when he was decorated by Giscard d"Estaing. This wise, now old man, had many conversations with me during the Brexit time and was humble enough to even say that the French needed us far more than we needed them in terms of Defence.
I am all for hearing different views, but lumping the whole argument under the bad heading is totally false reporting and a joke.

Lincslass

Looking at d.Welle, they are more concerned about their new coalition, murders in Berlin, looking after the homeless, you know things that concern the German people. Perhaps it’s only the French who are obsessed with us, perhaps instead of Macron sniping and stamping his feet, working together would be more beneficial to all.

... the obsession is not one sided - have you not read the comments on social media... "surrender, cheese-eating monkeys", how we "saved" them otherwise they'd "all be speaking German now"? They are continually portrayed as a country of cowards.

Yes, we should be working together - but putting Johnson's letter to Macron on social media... do you really think that was an act of diplomacy? How would you have reacted if Macron had done that? It was foolish and inflammatory.

Of course Macron is sabre-rattling as well, he's playing to his domestic audience, but that is exactly what Johnson is doing. It goes down well with the anti-French contingent.

Mamie

No Lincslass. French press has relevant stories on fishing and Calais problems, but most reporting measured and factual (at least in the papers I read). The lunchtime TV we watch still has positive stories from UK correspondants. I don't see anything like the bile, half truths and downright lies of the UK gutter press.

Seconded, I keep saying ,generally we get on with our own lives but the fishing and immigration is a FRrnch concern and reported

Horror. Like looking at a car crash.