England will have no further Covid restrictions until after the New Year.

rosie1959

I think England has made the right call at this moment in time.
Hospital admissions are not increasing by huge amount and the death rate has remained stable and decreasing.
Our main problem seems to be the number of people getting infected not because it makes them seriously ill but because it takes them away from essential services. We also have a problem with the unvaccinated
We will see if the restrictions in Scotland and Wales make a great difference I suspect they probably won’t
Things will have to move if Covid becomes less serious as it is with Omicron

Which source are you using for decreased deaths?

vegansrock

Highest number of cases since last February and such a demand for PCRs that there was no availability yesterday -,this indicates we are still in the eye of the virus storm. The NHS is hanging by a thread and staffing levels are at an all time low. Cancellations rife. It may be fine and dandy out in the shires but it’s not great in our urban centres amongst essential workers. This should be just as much a concern as Covid hospital admissions.

I don't think it is fine and dandy out in the shires.

maddyone

^…some people are being condemned to stay in their homes without human contact or to risk death….^

Rather extreme example as usual, what’s wrong with a middle way? Go out, wear a mask, sanitise, avoid crowds, lateral test, mix with a limited number of tested people ie family. We did this over Christmas, no social engagements outside of family, lateral flows, mixed with family. Lovely two days, everyone safe.

As usual? Maybe you'd like to explain what you mean by "as usual".

If you are at high risk of serious consequences, lateral flow tests won't help you, unless everybody else you come into contact with and everybody they've contacted does them.

Wearing a mask and avoiding crowds won't guarantee that you won't be infected. Both will reduce your risk, but that risk is increased the more cases there are. You, of all people, should know that even people who take precautions can be infected.

Those people who think that there should be no restrictions and that mask wearing, etc shouldn't be compulsory are accepting that everybody will be infected and we know, for a fact, that some people (mainly the more vulnerable) will die.

Not only about numbers going into hospital but staffing levels too. No one of us is truly immune despite vaccines.
Lack of after care for those needing it blocks beds and impacts on routine and emergency care that we may all need.
Deep down we must know that mixing where people may be spreading any germs let alone Covid can't be a sensible thing to do. Pre Covid, If friends and family had bad colds we at least tried to keep our distance.
So If Boris says we can mix I really don't think it means we must. Lets just be sensible. X

Balanced? How?

Do you believe the advice should be based on medical science, or ?!?

I think SAGE should never have been the only platform giving advice to government. I hope a more balanced approach now emerges.

Better late than never.

It seems to be rather obvious that the government should reintroduce financial assistance for businesses that suffer from covid restrictions, whether the restrictions be imposed by the government (which they won't be) or self imposed by concerned citizens.

Shutting their eyes to the damage being caused to the economy and people's livelihoods won't make the problem go away. This is still an emergency that requires active government intervention.

Germanshepherdsmum

I don’t think we can equate a pub owner’s need for profit with the nation’s need for essential services. It was said yesterday that the NHS currently has 20-25% ‘covid related’ absences - ie staff sick or isolating. That’s what threatens to overwhelm them rather than hospital admissions, though those will probably rise after all the unrestricted mixing over Christmas and New Year. Some schools had to close early before Christmas because of covid infections and isolating. Some may not reopen as usual. We are constantly being told that omicron generally gives a much milder illness if you are fully vaccinated (though of course many remain unvaccinated). That may be so but it’s the sheer scale of its effect that’s the problem rather than its severity. Staff absence on this scale isn’t something we can afford.

I don’t disagree with your points but just trying to say that restrictions have consequences. The pub was a simple one but if that owner relies on his profit or income to pay his bills his heat his light his food then being able to maintain his business is quite important
If someone or something suddenly took away our income we would suffer as I expect so would most people. They may have well have had reserves of cash in the beginning but I suspect this has been severely depleted
I don’t own a pub by the way

I am not particularly a cheerleader for a lockdown at the current time, I think a balance would have been the introduction of some restrictions such as social distancing. However I think people are underestimating the impact the new variant is having on a variety of sectors. I work in early years, in the week before term ended a number of settings were closed and a number were in the midst of severe staffing issues.

I also agree with Kali2 and time will tell, we will be able to measure ourselves against Scotland and Wales.

I don’t think we can equate a pub owner’s need for profit with the nation’s need for essential services. It was said yesterday that the NHS currently has 20-25% ‘covid related’ absences - ie staff sick or isolating. That’s what threatens to overwhelm them rather than hospital admissions, though those will probably rise after all the unrestricted mixing over Christmas and New Year. Some schools had to close early before Christmas because of covid infections and isolating. Some may not reopen as usual. We are constantly being told that omicron generally gives a much milder illness if you are fully vaccinated (though of course many remain unvaccinated). That may be so but it’s the sheer scale of its effect that’s the problem rather than its severity. Staff absence on this scale isn’t something we can afford.

…some people are being condemned to stay in their homes without human contact or to risk death….

Rather extreme example as usual, what’s wrong with a middle way? Go out, wear a mask, sanitise, avoid crowds, lateral test, mix with a limited number of tested people ie family. We did this over Christmas, no social engagements outside of family, lateral flows, mixed with family. Lovely two days, everyone safe.

Oldbat1

We haven’t socialised at all nor have we seen any family over the Christmas. Sil tested + for Covid even though fully vaccinated. I am very concerned for the nhs and staffing issues. Time will tell but it doesn’t bode well.

We are the same but had decided on it because of things in previous years preCovid which made it easier.
Who knows where the figures will go after all the Christmas mixing, Hospital staff are going down like flies, it is bound to affect admissions.
Hospitality is bound to be hit as well, their staff are just as much at risk as the people who visit the pubs and hotels. In fact, more as they mix with more people.
We can only hope things will get better in the New Year and do our bit to help it.
We have people we know who were double vaced and boosted and still got it.

Just pointing out the drawbacks Juicywords if you happen to be a pub owner profit is necessary
At this moment in time the NHS is not overwhelmed and many do not think it will be
Social distancing was dropped back in July although I still find most adhere to it when possible
People are not in the main being selfish but after two vaccinations a booster and the positive news that Omicron is much less severe there has to be balance

Local pub has offered table service, including ordering drinks and food. Most people mask wearing. Most people not adhering to social distancing. Unfortunately the British population would not take kindly to the strict policing of Covid regulations, as say in Germany, where you can’t go in an out of shops without showing your vaccination status, or being checked on entry to shopping centres and given a wrist band, different colour for each day. Shops/ hospitality in the U.K. don’t seem to think it is their job to help protect their customers , ie with security making sure people adhere to mask wearing etc. We have nothing w ritten into law so we are on a hiding to nothing. Most people with common sense will adhere to trying to protect themselves and others. The rest will carry on as if nothing matters but their own self importance.

rosie1959

Bringing back table service and social distancing stops pubs running at a profit
Limiting the households who can meet indoors will this really make a difference and will people comply
Nightclubs already have Covid passes

So it’s all about making a profit is it?

No concern for the vulnerable in society and the NHS being overwhelmed, resulting in non-COVID treatment being cancelled and NHS staff exhausted .

I totally agree with GSM that table service in restaurants and pubs should have been reintroduced, and indoor mixing limited. Many have overlooked social distancing completely.

And I also agree, MayBee70, that since Freedom day it’s given permission for many to be selfish.

We can’t have everything. Packed pubs with no social distancing or masks may be great for profit but those are ideal conditions for spreading covid.
I’m not convinced that covid passes are properly checked and we know there’s no proof that the pass is genuine or belongs to the person showing it.
It may be difficult to limit household mixing but it was one of the lockdown measures and as with everything there will be those who comply and those who don’t. But I don’t believe England has done the right thing and that Scotland, Wales and NI have all got it wrong.
We simply cannot afford to have huge numbers of people not working, with knock on effects on the NHS, schools and other essential services - not to mention the prospect of giving the virus ideal conditions to mutate further.

Bringing back table service and social distancing stops pubs running at a profit
Limiting the households who can meet indoors will this really make a difference and will people comply
Nightclubs already have Covid passes

My suggestions are bringing back table service in pubs and bars and also in nightclubs, limiting the numbers of people/households who can mix indoors, bringing back social distancing and limiting numbers attending indoor events. None of that 'shuts down society'.

Out of interest those who want more restrictions what would you suggest that would actually make a difference at this time

growstuff

Maggiemaybe

The BBC again:

Latest figures showed there were 8,474 people with Covid currently in hospital in England - the highest since March, but well below last winter's peak of more than 34,000. Not all the patients in hospital will have been admitted for Covid - about three in 10, according to the latest data, have the virus but were admitted to hospital for something else.

Now I’m no fan of Boris, but in view of those figures, and the expert advice he’s been given today, I can’t see why he should be shutting us down right now.

So how do you suggest that the spread of infection is limited?

The number of cases is currently at record levels. It looks as though deaths aren't rising at the same rate, but there are still a number of issues.

Firstly, vulnerable people are still dying - maybe some people are prepared to write them off as collateral, but you might feel differently if it were you were at high risk, maybe because you are immuno-suppressed or have underlying health issues which mean that you're at high risk of being severely affected. Nobody has ever promised that vaccinations are 100% effective, so some people are being condemned to stay in their homes without human contact or to to risk death.

Secondly, it's inevitable that some people, including staff, will catch Covid in hospital if the community transmission is rife. It's yet another reason to keep case incidence rates low. Otherwise, it will become impossible to treat people for non-Covid conditions in hospital.

Thirdly, if the virus is allowed a free rein and cases remain high, it's inevitable that there will be further mutations. Nobody knows whether new variants would be more deadly. Scientists can't predict how the virus will mutate and will always be on the back foot regarding vaccinations and treatments. While they're playing catch-up, people will become very ill and will die.

"Shutting down" society is a sign of failure because precautionary measures haven't been taken in time. Mask wearing, social distancing, good ventilation and encouragement to avoid public places, including working from home, need to be enforced.

Good post, growstuff ?

It's good to see that some posters retain their sanity... ?

We mustn't shut down the economy again

I wouldn't worry about that, maudi. The economy will shut itself down when a large percentage of the workforce is too ill to go to work. !

I think Boris has called it right this time. We will have to learn to live with Covid, I think it is up to the individual to take responsibility for their own health and take due precautions. We mustn't shut down the economy again. No more lock downs.

It has been reported that the hospital admissions do not show which patients have been admitted because of Covid against those which have been admitted with something else and just happen to test positive although they have no symptoms

The figures I read this morning indicate that the stats are heading in the wrong direction. The evidence of mixing of generations will be demonstrated in 2 weeks time, based on the disease past impact. The government are taking a chance. With people's lives, they are having a gamble. The reason may be that they are too weak to stand up to the people who don't have responsibility but oppose any legal restrictions.