A sad and painful discovery in the story of Anne Frank

the idea of expecting our Royal Navy to risk the lives of asylum seekers, rather than save them is disgusting and shameful.

That goes against Maritime Law

So would I Annie, God help me.

MayBee70 Tue 18-Jan-22 14:11:12
Anniebach
I can’t say what I would do, yes I can sit in my home in 2022 and condemn , but would I betray another family to save mine or remain silent and let my family die .
We’ve often debated this within our family. The conclusion we reached is that my ex would do the most honourable thing possible but I feel that I would do anything if it saved my children. I don’t feel good about thinking that but I have to be honest with myself. None of us know how we’d behave in such a terrible situation.

MayBee I have given it thought , my darling daughter died four years ago, I would betray another to save my children,

I feel I would have done anything if it saved my children.

Thank you MayBee for your honest post. I think many of us would have done anything too.
Many Jewish mothers gave away their children in order to save them. Especially their babies and especially girls. Nuns hid Jewish children in convents to keep them safe. Parents put their children on the KinderTransport. Most of the parents who hid or gave their children away never returned from the camps.

People will rarely sacrifice themselves and are even less likely to sacrifice their children. From what I’ve read, if this individual did give up the Frank family, he was trying to keep his own from the gas chambers.
Jewish people did similar things in the ghettos. In the concentration camps, some Jewish prisoners helped the nazi guards, shaving heads, extracting gold teeth from bodies and so on. When you’re starving, brutalised and facing worse, you mainly want to survive.

I’m not suggesting the current government is anything like the Nazis but - the idea of expecting our Royal Navy to risk the lives of asylum seekers, rather than save them is disgusting and shameful. I

I don’t disagree at all with posters saying it’s not anti Semitic to disclose this information now, I just said I wondered if it was.

None of us know how we would act if we were in the same situation. It’s unimaginable to us. Many Jews turned in their fellow Jews because they were afraid and if it kept them safe a little bit longer that was the price. I know this because I’ve read widely around this subject. As many of us have said, how could we possibly know what we would have done if our own dear children were at risk in this way.

There is two articles in daily newspapers about this , it’s sad it seemed giving the Franks hideout was his last card to play to save his family, who knows what anyone would do in that position.
One article seems the author of the book comes to the conclusion Otto Frank did know who betrayed him but because by then the man had died he saw no advantage to naming who it was . Very interesting reading.

Anniebach

I can’t say what I would do, yes I can sit in my home in 2022 and condemn , but would I betray another family to save mine or remain silent and let my family die .

We’ve often debated this within our family. The conclusion we reached is that my ex would do the most honourable thing possible but I feel that I would do anything if it saved my children. I don’t feel good about thinking that but I have to be honest with myself. None of us know how we’d behave in such a terrible situation.

The Nazi regime started as a direct result of the defeat of Germany after WW1. The terms and conditions of the Versailles agreement (together with one weak government after another ) were so draconian as to drive Germans into the arms of extremists who played on the despair created and actually for a while did deliver in getting the economy moving. Think Autobahn, which was naturally popular and led to Hitler becoming Chancellor after overthrowing the elderly Hindenburg. The rest is history.

Lincslass

paddyann54

Not anti -semitic,desperation . We cant judge what was done all these years later through eyes that haven't seen the horrors visited on people during the Nazi regime .What we can do is try to stop those things happening again ,fight against government taking the same route that Hitler took.Look at the history books and open your eyes,the Tory government is on that same path .Dont let it happen again

So are you saying the Tory gov are going to deliberately kill people., as in a holocaust. You disgust me.

No I’m sure that is not what is meant, but authoritarian governments that defranchise some of the population, that aim to prevent such human rights as protest, that consider rules are only for the little people and those they despise, when they try to prevent critical reports by the National news broadcaster, when they aim to ship asylum seekers to unpleasant dictatorships in Africa and prevent as many as they can from entering our shores for help.

When people ask the question, “how on earth did people in Germany allow the slide into fascism?”

Remember this is how it starts.

SueDonim I believe the man in question died in 1950 so yes he survived.

We cannot know what went through people's minds at that time, such terrible circumstances and conditions. Who would react differently when faced with those choices, I'm not sure.

I'm also not sure about democracy being alive and well given some of the decisions made by different governments.

The Nazi regime started slowly, over many years. It started with demonisation of some groups, and not only Jews. Beatings, shops windows broken. They were called vermin and worse. Slowly, slowly... it took years. My mother was studying in Munich in 1932- she saw it all and had to return home early, as it was escalating.

If you turn boats away, knowing they will drown- yes, children too, like Anne... then that is the beginning. Did yout watch the Documentary about Aghanistan last night. So many children, much younger and the same age as Anne. Not just one, 1000s.

The Tory government/party is not even remotely like the Nazi regime or ever will be, and to say this is ridiculous or to have very little knowledge of the Hitler regime, or indeed any totalitarian regime.

paddyann54

Not anti -semitic,desperation . We cant judge what was done all these years later through eyes that haven't seen the horrors visited on people during the Nazi regime .What we can do is try to stop those things happening again ,fight against government taking the same route that Hitler took.Look at the history books and open your eyes,the Tory government is on that same path .Dont let it happen again

So are you saying the Tory gov are going to deliberately kill people., as in a holocaust. You disgust me.

We dont know how lucky we are to be living in a democracy. Not perfect I'm sure, but what is?

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The news story I read said that the man had been allowed to stay living normally with his family in exchange for information fed to the Nazis. He gave away the Franks’s secret because it was the last card he had to play. I don’t know whether he survived the war - does anyone know?

Apparently, Anne Frank’s father, Otto, knew the identity of who had betrayed them but he kept it to himself.

It’s a terrible story, it must have been an impossible dilemma.

It really doesn't take much to bring out the worst in a lot of people.

Doodledog as demonstrated in Nazi Germany and other countries too.
Those who did not agree often kept quiet out of fear.

maddyone

I’m probably completely wrong, but the thought briefly crossed my mind, is this new accusation anti Semitic? I pushed the thought away, because I know that a small number of Jewish people did betray members of their own community, basically in order to save themselves. The thought lingers though, is this anti Semitic?

Why would it be anti-semitic?

Like many minority communities, Jewish people of the time would mainly have mixed and done business with each other, so it's likely that your own people know your plans, contacts, movements etc., so be in a position to protect or betray.

If you are faced with a situation where a family is going to die, and your decision is whether it should be yours or another one, what would you do/

As for people turning on one another, look what happened in the first lockdown when people were denouncing one another for buying 'non-essential' items and hugging their grandchildren. It really doesn't take much to bring out the worst in a lot of people.

I’m probably completely wrong, but the thought briefly crossed my mind, is this new accusation anti Semitic? I pushed the thought away, because I know that a small number of Jewish people did betray members of their own community, basically in order to save themselves. The thought lingers though, is this anti Semitic?

Riverwalk

Who knows how we would behave in such terrible circumstances.

The article I read said the named person 'may' have been the one to betray the Frank family. As there appears to be no firm evidence it doesn't seem right to point the finger all these years later - must be awful for any living relatives.

I thought so too.

Strange that this evidence has been unearthed after all these years pointing to a fellow Jew.

If threatened with the capture, torture and death of our own children or grandchildren what would any of us do?

Torture is torture, whether mental or physical. Could you look at your family, children and grandchildren, knowing they would be killed if you did not betray another family?

I often wonder how I would respond to physical torture, would I quickly give any information I had -or fabricate it - . h although nowadays physical torture seems to be inflicted on people just because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, or hold the wrong beliefs, regardless whether there is any information to be got out of them.

Germanshepherdsmum

I expect it weighed on his conscience for the rest of his life.

If he even survived. Many Jewish informers went the same way as all other Jewish people once they’d outlived their usefulness. It was a terrible situation, one that we cannot even imagine. What would anyone do to save their child? How can we know?