Russian massing on the Ukrainian border

Dinahmo I think "puppet master" is an apt label for Putin. If anybody has a good claim to be "king of the world", it's him.

"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting." Sun Tzu.

grannypiper gave no specifics in her post.

No I don't think Putin does give a toss about sanctions and if he wants to invade Ukraine he will, if he doesnt, he won't, simple as that. I'm not sure that troop deployment information should be put out on social media.

I personally think that Putin is having a laugh. No doubt he would like to take Ukraine back under Russian control and I sincerely hope that he doesn't.

Russia has been expanding ever since Ivan the Terrible doubled its size during his reign. Peter the Great and Catherine the Great also expanded the country. In 1793 a large chunk of Ukraine was acquired during the second partition of Poland.

After WW1 The USSR was formed comprising 15 republics. Fast forward to the 80s and the economic decline which exacerbated ethnic tensions and promoted regionalism and nationalism. This combined with Gorbachev's attempts at glasnot and the subsequent backlash against his efforts lead to a coup which was ultimately unsuccessful.

In 1991 the USSR started to break up. Putin had been a KGB officer for 16 years prior to its dissolution, also in 1991. The head of the KGB was one of the leaders of the coup and it's likely that Putin would have been in favour of it. In 1991 Putin decided to go into politics and the rest his history.

I think that Putin is taking pleasure in seeing the West disagreeing over the actions to be taken over the current situation. He is a puppet master. The language of Biden, Johnson and Truss seems to be inflaming the situation. It's certainly not helping.

Copied from a friend:

''I think this plays really well into Putin's hand as it shows the discord within EU and NATO and thus undermines Ukraine's safety even more.

This is what I meant when I said that the objectives of Putin are already achieved and one more step and he's likely to suffer consequences and actually consolidate the West against him. Right now he has them exactly where he wants them to be - disunited, chaotic and clueless. No wonder Putin was so keen to influence the Brexit vote to divide Europe''.

thoughts are with you grannypiper….

This is chillig grannypiper- you must be so worried, and I am sorry.

However, are you allowed to say that he has been deployed on Social Media?

Unfortunately when you join the armed forces, armed conflict and putting yourself in mortal danger is potentially part of what you are signing up for. We all hope it won't happen but obviously are aware that it might and presumably take that on board before joining. As in all dangerous occupations, we all hope it won't happen but are fully aware that it might not once but several times during your service.

My Nephew phoned to say goodbye to myself and my Husband last night, his Regiment have been deployed. Having sat at home whilst my Husband and Father of my children fought in Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia and Kosovo i hoped we would never have to go through this again, thoughts and prayers are with all those who have family in the Armed Forces.

I don't think the West will send fighting troops on the ground to Ukraine, but if a NATO country is threatened we may have to then. I think the Kremlin made it quite clear that whatever assurances were given to President Macron by P.Putin that they were in fact a misunderstanding and that Russia is only interested in talking to Washington not Paris, so who knows what to believe. If true, this would be another dilemma for the West bearing in mind the present occupant of the White House and his Administrations handling of Afghanistan.

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2

We have members on this site who have family members in the armed forces, imagine the implication if Biden with Johnson on his coat tails continues with his hard line stance, war must never seen as a better alternative to diplomacy.

I am one of those Whitewavemark2 I have to believe that the U.K. will not deploy fighting troops as opposed to instructors/trainers

Anyone of any sense will think the same. We must put every effort in diplomacy and compromise and refuse to go down the lines of warlike rhetoric.

That doesn’t have to mean appeasement but realistic and hard fought diplomacy. Something which at one time the U.K. was very good at - but no longer.

Again, the UK is still part of NATO, but its role in Europe has changed totally. The UK, via Johnson, does not represent NATO, does NOT have a mandate. And the whole of Europe is massively worried about him and Truss, and Wallace, going in with threats, undermining diplomacy.

''As Europe pushes for peace, clueless Johnson snipes from the sidelines

Simon Tisdall in the Guardian

Brexit Britain’s isolated leaders resort to posturing and fist-waving over Ukraine while France’s Macron pursues diplomatic solutions in Moscow''

Whitewavemark2

We have members on this site who have family members in the armed forces, imagine the implication if Biden with Johnson on his coat tails continues with his hard line stance, war must never seen as a better alternative to diplomacy.

I am one of those Whitewavemark2 I have to believe that the U.K. will not deploy fighting troops as opposed to instructors/trainers

Novara Media take They think Starmer should not start fighting talk more diplomacy is needed.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=bqi2Ox2y-w4

My DH was in the Fleet Air arm for many years during the retreat from Empire. The Far East was particularly dangerous especially the retreat from Aden. But, when you join HM forces you have to expect anything from peace keeping to outright warfare, otherwise you shouldn't join, no one makes you these days.

We have members on this site who have family members in the armed forces, imagine the implication if Biden with Johnson on his coat tails continues with his hard line stance, war must never seen as a better alternative to diplomacy.

Jaberwok

No one has said that it invasion is inevitable, what has been said is that IF Russia decides to annex Ukraine, realistically the West is powerless to stop them. IF Russia then turns its attention elsewhere, this time to a NATO country, what then? Macron got absolutely no where with Putin, the meeting was a farce, nice try, but realistically futile. Russia holds all the cards here and as for sanctions, I don't think Putin cares, after all when people in Russia stuffer sanctions are a useful tool to stir up public hatred against the West

I wonder if you would like to outline Macrons plan? So that we can judge for ourselves whether it was a farce?

Yes it may end in failure and without USA support this is more likely, but diplomacy is always a better outcome, even if it means a degree of compromise, than war which never ever ends well.

No one has said that it invasion is inevitable, what has been said is that IF Russia decides to annex Ukraine, realistically the West is powerless to stop them. IF Russia then turns its attention elsewhere, this time to a NATO country, what then? Macron got absolutely no where with Putin, the meeting was a farce, nice try, but realistically futile. Russia holds all the cards here and as for sanctions, I don't think Putin cares, after all when people in Russia stuffer sanctions are a useful tool to stir up public hatred against the West

Putin is an ambitious bully who has triggered the crises. Macron who represents France and Europe is trying to resolve it through diplomatic means.

Hard line and ill judged rhetoric from the U.K. and USA may cause macron to fail.

There is very little that the U.K. can do unilaterally, it’s run down military is testament to that. The U.K. is reliant on other countries to do the heavy lifting in the military department.

However what the U.K. could do is to stop the money laundering by Russian oligarchs in the U.K. but the Tory party is very dependent on this “red gold”

Invasion is not inevitable, despite what the USA would have us believe. Europe continues with its diplomatic efforts and whilst the U.K. and USA snipe on the sidelines, there is no doubt that the best path to peace has been outlined by the French President.

Realistically there is absolutely nothing the West can do to stop Russia invading and annexing Ukraine, ditto China doing the same to Taiwan, or North Korea attacking the South, anymore than we could prevent Tibet being invaded by China, or China breaking its agreement over Hong Kong, which I'm amazed lasted as long as it did! We do know that Putin has said that the break up of the USSR was an absolute disaster and that he would work tirelessly to reinstate the Warsaw Pact in his lifetime. This begs the question, what if Russia turns its attention to Poland and the Baltic States? These countries are of course members of NATO and presumably would have to be defended. Nuclear war is not in anyone's interest and completely self defeating, so I can't see any expansionist government resorting to that as inheriting a poisonous, derelict landscape would seem pretty futile, but on the other hand one thing can lead to another,so you can never be quite sure. Not good, any of it.

The Tories government ridiculous behaviour is very well summed up in the Observer today by Simon Tinsdall.
Both the German and French heads of state have had meetings with Putin, trying to argue the case for not invading Ukraine.

Where has Johnson been? Absolutely nowhere. Truss had a meeting with the Russian foreign minister and made an absolute idiot if herself, and then Wallace has the nerve to accuse other states of appeasement!!

In line with Russian military doctrine, the new document reaffirms that the country could use nuclear weapons in response to a nuclear attack or an aggression involving conventional weapons that threatens the very existence of the state

No-one, as far as I have seen, is proposing to threaten the very existence of the state of Russia.

It is Russia which is menacing a neutral state.