Nicola Sturgeon vows to start process of second independence referendum

grandtanteJE65, esky, yogitree and the like

And now add ElaineRI55

Well, well. There are those who say we hate the English - we don't - but there are obviously some people who hate us! (Judging by the lack of command of the language and the unfamiliar names I wonder if President Putin is amongst us with his stirring spoon. Just saying.)

I recently met a very nice man from Kent who was on holiday here and his mask reminded me that I hadn't put mine on since coming inside. I thanked him, and he said that in the United Kingdom, where he came from, they weren't necessary in as many places as they are here. I pointed out gently that we were still in the United Kingdom, and he seemed surprised to hear it. This was someone who said he had enjoyed frequent visits to Scotland, so it may not be surprising that a lot of people in other parts of the UK don't understand Scotland (and why should they?).

To be clear too, I am Scottish, live in Scotland, support independence and am not keen on the SNP.

Well this has been quite comical, really.

A bunch of people ranting on about how racist, divisive, irresponsible, and useless Scotland/SNP/Sturgeon/the Independence movement are (delete as applicable). A bunch of people who seem to think we survive on oil, whisky and highland dancers. A bunch of people who have no idea what Scotland’s like now. There are certainly people who live in Scotland who think this way. But, I’ll say this again, because many of you seem to have missed it. However much you witter on about how Scotland doesn’t like her, Sturgeon is still the only UK leader with a positive approval score. The SNP still won more votes in an election not quite a year ago, than anybody had won before in Scotland. They’ve still got 80% of the seats available to them in Westminster. So somebody likes them.

So rant on all you like about how you abhor her/them/us. There’s plenty that don’t and I’m sorry to say I’ve just got an image when I read your comments of an angry group of wifies shaking their fists and demanding that we listen to them because they’ve got it right and we haven’t.

And as for the people telling us we’ll never survive, what will we live on, you can’t have the pound you know. Consider perhaps that all you’re doing is making yourself feel better and shouting into your echo chamber. The echo chamber that still thinks we’re scrounging jocks in kilts wanting to take the poor long suffering rUK for every penny.

So, to finish this post, some corrections.
The SNP only do things for young folk? Free bus travel for over sixties, free prescriptions, free social care. (pauses for envious frothing to subside).
There’s no such constituency as Buchan Susysue.
We will still have equivalent funding to the Barnett Formula after independence because we won’t have to send any of our own revenue down south to finance HS2 or Trident or the like. We’ll keep our own money, thanks. Including what we raise from our higher tax rates and thresholds, raised from the people who work in our knowledge economy that doesn’t have to rely on heavy industry, pce612.

So just do a bit of comparison between the thoughtful and reasoned posts of grandtanteJE65, esky, yogitree and the like, and compare them with the vicious and ill-informed ramblings of the anti -independence gang.

And ask yourself why we might possibly want to go.

Lucca

Mummer

Buttercup yours so right! Scotland would not qualify to have Euro. Its finances would also present a huge obstacle to qualifying too unless they cheat as the Greeks? She's a very unfunny joke with her spikey Leboutins (higher the heel-lower the class) and crusty makeup with vampire slits of lips à là Thatcher! She like a scrawny pantomime dame and her appearances seem to feature herself above all else, even what she's supposed to be talking about! Self driven meglamaniac! Poor Scots need to oust her asap before she destroys them completely, a union that's lasted all that history has chucked at it should not be destroyed by a poison kiss from this vampira

That is a terrible post. All those vicious comments about her physical appearance.
If it weren’t the middle of the day I’d think you’d been drinking.

Agreed. Vicious comments about a person's appearance are unnecessary and do nothing for this discussion. I dislike Ms Sturgeon's politics, but I admire her smart dress and crisp delivery, even if I don't agree with all that she says.

Aveline

Unfortunately SNP fans don't check facts or even read deeply into documents. They are led by sound bites from Nicola.

Wow. Why do we see personal or sweeping generalised insults instead of reasoned arguments.
I am quite offended by your comment Aveline.
I think there are intelligent, thoughtful people among the supporters of every main political party. I am an SNP member - others in my family aren't, but we do overwhelmingly support independence.
Independence is the normal situation for a country and we were independent for centuries.
Most people in Scotland who support independence have no anti-English sentiments and many are not necessarily SNP supporters. We just want to run our own affairs as those who live here are best placed to do so. We might not have unanimity on all policies, even EU membership; we were, however, dragged out of the EU against our will. We are a country, not a village, town or city - so the fact that, as a country, we voted to stay does matter. We would have difficult decisions to make and financial challenges, no doubt - it will be up to us to solve them. A robust constitution and more citizen involvement in decisions will help to achieve this.
I would also hope that our success as a social democracy would encourage voters in England to expect more of their government and vote accordingly. I lived in England for around 7 years as a child and have close relatives there - I do not want to see anyone suffer through the increased privatisation of the NHS or more illogical austerity policies whereby the rich get richer and richer and fraudulent contracts go to party donors who set up companies to promise things they can't deliver etc.
I agree with everything Alegrias1 says and there's no point repeating it all.
One of the strategies used to persuade voters to vote No in 2014 was that we wouldn't be able to stay in the EU. No irony/hypocrisy there!
Scotland is perfectly capable of running it's own economy, using a suitable currency, paying its pensioners a better pension etc.
Education, health and wellbeing no doubt can be improved on but are certainly not the disaster some folk have tried to suggest (my DH and I and many members of our family have or do work in these areas). Our free university tuition, free prescriptions and extra support for children along with mitigations against UK policies such as the bedroom tax make it a fairer ( not perfect) place to live at the moment. These are not subsided by rUK by the way.
I get the feeling all GNs want a better, fairer, more equal society for our children and grandchildren. Can we stick to reasoned arguments re the best way for Scotland (as on this thread) or the whole of UK to achieve this?

Buttercup1954

Well said. That's how a lot of people I know feel including myself. I am Scottish and I do live in Scotland just to be clear.

Well said who ? The hideous insulting rant from Mummer ?

Well said. That's how a lot of people I know feel including myself. I am Scottish and I do live in Scotland just to be clear.

Mummer

Buttercup yours so right! Scotland would not qualify to have Euro. Its finances would also present a huge obstacle to qualifying too unless they cheat as the Greeks? She's a very unfunny joke with her spikey Leboutins (higher the heel-lower the class) and crusty makeup with vampire slits of lips à là Thatcher! She like a scrawny pantomime dame and her appearances seem to feature herself above all else, even what she's supposed to be talking about! Self driven meglamaniac! Poor Scots need to oust her asap before she destroys them completely, a union that's lasted all that history has chucked at it should not be destroyed by a poison kiss from this vampira

What an awful thing to say - words fail me!!

Grantanow

Whatever Sturgeon thinks or does it's not clear to me that she could bring about independence legally without the approval of the UK government (subject to the UK Supreme Court) and UK Parliament otherwise a referendum is simply an opinion poll. Nor is it clear how Scotland could be economically independent of the UK (as distinct from politically so) without a significant fall in living standards.

So as I understand what you are saying here is that Scotland is a subservient state to the UK, run from London, England?

How many Scottish judges sit on the UK Supreme Court bench - there would have to be some for it to legally claim it was a court for the whole of the UK surely?

Mummer

Buttercup yours so right! Scotland would not qualify to have Euro. Its finances would also present a huge obstacle to qualifying too unless they cheat as the Greeks? She's a very unfunny joke with her spikey Leboutins (higher the heel-lower the class) and crusty makeup with vampire slits of lips à là Thatcher! She like a scrawny pantomime dame and her appearances seem to feature herself above all else, even what she's supposed to be talking about! Self driven meglamaniac! Poor Scots need to oust her asap before she destroys them completely, a union that's lasted all that history has chucked at it should not be destroyed by a poison kiss from this vampira

That is a terrible post. All those vicious comments about her physical appearance.
If it weren’t the middle of the day I’d think you’d been drinking.

Always love these discussions about nationality.

Are you the nationality of where you were born?

If true, then Cliff Richard, Felicity Kendall, Spike Milligan, Googie Withers and Joanna Lumley are Indian.

So I'm guessing they wouldn't be allowed to vote in elections in the UK unless they applied for citizenship?

Agree with this absolutely.

Well those who say “better together” weren’t saying that when it came to Brexit when we were told it would be marvellous - lower prices and wonderful trade and no immigrants - look how thats turning out, I love Scotland and think it’s good on them to determine their own future. I’ll be tempted to move there if they go independent of the corrupt archaic English government.

THIS, ABOVE! READ! Very well explained. Thank you.

paddyann54

She was voted in on a mandate for Independence just last May ...so why is it a dead duck? The number of voters who want Independence is rising all the time .If you dont live here you wont know how the land lies.If the past two years (+ Brexit) have shown us anything then its that we are not just second class citizens where Westminster is concerned we dont exist!!
Our elected representatives at WM are treated with disdain an disrespect why would we continue to send them to a parliament where we haven't a cats chance in hell of getting anything done .
INDEPENDENCE IS NORMAL .If there was no need or call for it then why have Scottish voters returned the SNP to power time after time ? Its not some tactic to tell the tories we dont want them...we've more than proven that by not voting them into power since 1955 ..yes that IS NINETEEN FIFTY FIVE .As for labour they are a lost cause with their only MP predicted to lose his seat next time round .
Please understand we dont hate English people ,but we will be happier and better off with them as good neighbours and not bad masters ..which is what they've been for most of 314 years .

Completely agree with all your sentiments paddyann54. It's time. Westminster is not relevant to Scotland and the Scottish people have only recently had this come into their consciousness. It's taken a loooooong time but I feel it's happening. Most people I know (I live in Scotland) are ready for change - we want to run our own country without the restraints of Westminster's involvement. We have the resources.

My simple reason for supporting Scottish independence (I'm English and have lived here for 50 years) is that I want a better country. I want to see well funded public services (and if that means raising taxes, so be it), no nuclear weapons and a productive relationship with Europe. To be clear too, many of us who support independence are not SNP voters....and the SNP would do well to publicly acknowledge this large group and encourage it.

Buttercup yours so right! Scotland would not qualify to have Euro. Its finances would also present a huge obstacle to qualifying too unless they cheat as the Greeks? She's a very unfunny joke with her spikey Leboutins (higher the heel-lower the class) and crusty makeup with vampire slits of lips à là Thatcher! She like a scrawny pantomime dame and her appearances seem to feature herself above all else, even what she's supposed to be talking about! Self driven meglamaniac! Poor Scots need to oust her asap before she destroys them completely, a union that's lasted all that history has chucked at it should not be destroyed by a poison kiss from this vampira

From my experience, Scotland isn't racist unless you are English.

Hysterical the other day! DH watching M.Trout on TV and announces: " she breathes through her a**e!" As she NEVER drew breathe for over 7minutes!! ???

Another of Scotland has changed their minds since the last one. I know a few one voted to leave UK and now says stay and another the otherway round. It makes no difference to me as long as England doesnt have to give them any money ever again except for goods. As the North Sea gas and oil is running out good luck to them with the EU being in charge of their finances.

Whatever Sturgeon thinks or does it's not clear to me that she could bring about independence legally without the approval of the UK government (subject to the UK Supreme Court) and UK Parliament otherwise a referendum is simply an opinion poll. Nor is it clear how Scotland could be economically independent of the UK (as distinct from politically so) without a significant fall in living standards.

Not all Scots want independence of England, but a great many do.

There are many reasons for it, going all the way back to 1603, when Elizabeth Tudor died and her nearest Protestant relation James VI of Scotland became king of England as well as king of Scotland.

In practically any other country a similar state of affairs would most likely have resulted in the king's original country taking over the new kingdom. James apparently felt uncertain of his welcome in England and chose to move to London. Admittedly the Stuarts were quite often in Scotland after that, but as time went on and the Stuart kings were replaced by the House of Hannover and the Scottish Parliament was disbanded, leaving the former English parliament in London as the UK's only parliament, Scotland began to feel more and more marganilised and ill-done by.

Having grown up in Scotland this brief historical review was part of my schooling, but I early realised that English people know nothing or little of all these facts and genuinely do not understand why Scotland could possibly feel a desire for independence.

An Independant Scotland and the EU?

Well, as Scotland had a majority who voted for remaining in the EU there is good reason to believe that an Independant Scotland will ask to rejoin the EU.

However, the population of Scotland compares quite reasonably to that of Norway and Norway is not a member of the EU, so Scotland might be able to go it alone, although why Scotland would want to, as most Scots didn't want to leave the EU baffles me.

I realise that these political threads tend to lead to mud-slinging, but if you read a little Scottish history south of the border, you might just start to realise how some, perhaps most Scots feel about the whole United Kingdom.

IMO the United Kingdom has never been anything but a ironic statement. Geographically speaking the majority of British citizens who live in the British Isles live in England. This means that the majority of voters live there too, and have never bothered to try and find out how the Scots, Irish (north or south) or Welsh feel and think about the political construction called the United Kingdom.

As taking today

What hasn't been said is that the total population of Scotland is approx. 2 million less (6 million) than that of London alone. Not a lot in taxes to be got after independence.
Scotland gets an awful lot of money from central government, which will stop if it gets independence. Distilleries can only generate so much in taxes. There is not much in the way of heavy industry either and what will happen to oil refineries if there is no oil to refine?
If Scotland is to become carbon neutral how can it still rely on income from oil and gas fields?
Who knows how many companies will up sticks and move their headquarters elsewhere? Unless they get good tax breaks.
Who is going to pay for healthcare if there is no NHS?
Same for the armed forces, will Scotland have it's own defence services?
How is the central pension pot going to be split up?
The BBC?

Basically, who is going to pay for it all? I don't want to be living in a 3rd world country.

It is true that we do have a good tourist industry and wonderful scenery but we also have a colder climate and shorter daylight hours in the winter.

Rant over.

I don't find those comments 'fatuous'.
I too think we English should have a vote as to whether we want Scotland to stay in the Union.
I'm fed up with the constant whingeing from the Scots. At least if they gain independence we can retain the money they are given and use it to improve England's NHS and our cities in the North of England.