Nicola Sturgeon vows to start process of second independence referendum

Alegrias- I didn't set up the voting system for Holyrood nor did I even vote for their being a Scottish Assembly as I feared it would turn into an expensive talking shop which would lead to nothing better for Scotland. My fears were justified.

Some people have to leave for various reasons, work, marriage but intended to move back one day to be near family.

I won't call myself Scottish because I'm not.
I'm French/Saxon/Welsh.

I really don't mind what you decide, I was just stating what my born and brought up Scottish exiled friends say.

Aveline

Despite Nicola being on TV day after day before the election last year the SNP didn't gain enough of a majority outright and had to form an alliance with the Greens to have a majority.
The general Scottish public just don't have the appetite for another bitterly divisive independence vote. We need to recover from the pandemic and get Health, Education and the Economy back on track among other vital aspects of life up here.

Now Aveline.

You of all people know that the Scottish Parliamentary voting system was set up to prevent any one party having an overall majority. And that the SNP have consistently won more seats in the Parliament than expected because of the number of people who vote SNP in both constituency and list votes. The system is designed to work on consensus.

So the cry that they didn't get a majority is a bit disingenuous, no?

If you live in Scotland or pay taxes in Scotland it seems fair that you can have a vote in Scotland.
Long expats with rosy tinted glasses who've seen 'Braveheart' could really wreck life for us residents if they voted for independence in a fit of nostalgic fervour.

Alegrias1

Callistemon21

How do you decide if a person who lives in (say) Wales is Scottish?

So you can't be Scottish if you live elsewhere?

My DH was born in England but has lived in Scotland for 60 years or so. He can't call himself Scottish because there is no such thing politically.

I stood behind an American in the queue for an art exhibition in Holyrood who was proudly telling the lassie on the desk that he was Scottish because he had 11% Scottish DNA.

Call yourself Scottish if you like. If you want to decide how the country is run, come and live here.

Aside from this it's a huge practical problem. It's not as if we have ID cards (like for example the Belgians do, which essentially says Walloon/Flemish/Bruxellois).

We could go for whatever version of Scottish nationality will be described, like the last time, in whatever white paper appears (I believe the last time it was 1: Living there automatic, 2: Born there automatic, 3: Born to Scottish parents – you can claim it and it will be granted 4: maybe something about grandparents, I can’t really remember now) but can you imagine how long it would take to compile an electoral register of this sort?

And in any case I’m also persuaded by what could be paraphrased as the ‘no taxation without representation’ argument – if that’s where you live then you’re entitled to take part.

Despite Nicola being on TV day after day before the election last year the SNP didn't gain enough of a majority outright and had to form an alliance with the Greens to have a majority.
The general Scottish public just don't have the appetite for another bitterly divisive independence vote. We need to recover from the pandemic and get Health, Education and the Economy back on track among other vital aspects of life up here.

You know, all your posts are valid.

There are people who are fed up with Sturgeon talking about independence. There are Scots who just want the whole thing to disappear. There are extremists who blame the English for everything.

And despite it all, the SNP won enough of the vote to form a Scottish government in the 2021 election. The SNP have nearly 80% of the seats available to them in the Westminster government. Sturgeon is the only UK political leader with a positive popularity rating.

So despite what you say, the SNP seem to be doing something right. So you can tell us all we're stupid and taken in by the nasty Nats, because that's a really good way of getting us to agree with you.

Too poor, too wee, too stupid. Aye, right.

Callistemon21

^How do you decide if a person who lives in (say) Wales is Scottish?^

So you can't be Scottish if you live elsewhere?

My DH was born in England but has lived in Scotland for 60 years or so. He can't call himself Scottish because there is no such thing politically.

I stood behind an American in the queue for an art exhibition in Holyrood who was proudly telling the lassie on the desk that he was Scottish because he had 11% Scottish DNA.

Call yourself Scottish if you like. If you want to decide how the country is run, come and live here.

I’m beginning to feel as though the UK are going to be stuck on this independence roundabout for years at this rate. It’s like the Sword of Damocles hanging over the rest of us. “Keep voting till we get a YES” comes to mind!

I hope Scotland choose to stay in the Union if they do get Indy2. We are stronger together. However if they vote to leave the rest of us I wish them well. I don’t think you’re “too wee, too poor” but, a referendum was agreed to (by both sides) as a ‘once in a generation’ vote. Surely it’s time to put that drum away for a good few years yet?

Some media outlets tell us Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t really want independence. She bangs on about it to appeal to some (not all) and does so to extract more money from Westminster.

How do you decide if a person who lives in (say) Wales is Scottish?

So you can't be Scottish if you live elsewhere?

GillT57

I agree, excellent post.
I have a fair few Scottish friends who do not live in Scotland now but all have family who are there and they would agree with what you say.

I made the point previously that the SNP are partly responsible for the fact that we have had Tory Governments.

What's that sound?

Oh, its barrels being scraped!

Oh, I like this one....

How do you decide if a person who lives in (say) Wales is Scottish? If they were born there? If their granny was born there? If they have a holiday cottage on Arran? What about people who were born in Scotland but live somewhere else? Like my 80 year old cousin in Canada who hasn't been back for 50 years?

You want to vote, get yourself to Scotland. We don't care if you were born in Edinburgh, London or Timbuctoo. You want to shape the country's future, make a commitment to the country.

GillT.. Has summed up my Scottish Husbands thoughts. My Scottish in laws are sick to death of the Spin for independents.

paddyann54

She was voted in on a mandate for Independence just last May ...so why is it a dead duck? The number of voters who want Independence is rising all the time .If you dont live here you wont know how the land lies.If the past two years (+ Brexit) have shown us anything then its that we are not just second class citizens where Westminster is concerned we dont exist!!
Our elected representatives at WM are treated with disdain an disrespect why would we continue to send them to a parliament where we haven't a cats chance in hell of getting anything done .
INDEPENDENCE IS NORMAL .If there was no need or call for it then why have Scottish voters returned the SNP to power time after time ? Its not some tactic to tell the tories we dont want them...we've more than proven that by not voting them into power since 1955 ..yes that IS NINETEEN FIFTY FIVE .As for labour they are a lost cause with their only MP predicted to lose his seat next time round .
Please understand we dont hate English people ,but we will be happier and better off with them as good neighbours and not bad masters ..which is what they've been for most of 314 years .

PADDYANN

I'll repeat my post because it could get lost.

I made the point previously that the SNP are partly responsible for the fact that we have had Tory Governments.

Here is a case in point:

*Paddyann said:
Its not some tactic to tell the tories we dont want them...we've more than proven that by not voting them into power since 1955..

How odd, then, that the SNP MPs voted with the then Tory Oppositon to bring down the Labour Government of James Callaghan, resulting in the Tories under Margaret Thatcher winning and forming a government.

I would like to know if there is to be another Independence Referendum, would the opportunity to vote be for all Scottish people, irrespective of where they live in the UK?

Zoejory

Full Fact is a website I discovered thanks to posters on GN. It is often used to press a point home and I've not heard anyone dispute it yet. I think it is without agenda. But if it doesn't suit MaizieD that's fine by me.

I'm just unsure as to how a country as small as Scotland ends up subsidising a country many times its size.

I didn't say it had an agenda. I said it was likely to be using very questionable fgures, and supplied evidence of it.

'm not saying they did it deliberately, they used government provided figures, which is fine, but if the figures themselves don't tell the truth their conclusions aren't necessarily correct.

GillT57

I shall now duck behind the sofa/go out for the rest of the day, but as a Scot living in England I can report that;

despite what you are told by its supporters, the SNP are not universally popular in Scotland, my family living there report drastic decline in educational standards, health, wellbeing.

The SNP's answer to everything that they do wrong is to blame Westminster, often for responsibilities which are devolved.

Many Scots are stuck between a rock and a hard place with a choice of Tories or SNP, the SNP have swallowed up the Labour vote and a vote for the SNP automatically means a vote for their only policy ie Independence.

Ms Sturgeon has fairy tale economics, and is spinning a story that all will be well, the drug crisis will be cured, hospitals will magically be able to see everyone in time, schools will go back to their previous excellent standards, JUST BY DECLARING INDEPENDENCE. This is a scarily similar fake promise given to Brexit supporters.

I do no wish to offend any of the many SNP supporters on here, although I undoubtedly will, but I am tired of being told that everything is the fault of the English and listening to Ms Sturgeon spinning her web of lies and deceit.

Phew. Sorry, but got to get it off my chest, and of my long suffering relatives who are under her governance

Excellent post.

despite what you are told by its supporters, the SNP are not universally popular in Scotland

The SNP are not universally popular in my house.

Independence is though.

Zoejory

*So I hope you'll forgive my sceptism when I encounter sweeping statements about Scots being "pleased and proud" to pay their taxes.*

Totally agree, Bodach

They must go round talking about it! Virtual signallers?
I've never met anyone who says how pleased and proud they are to pay tax.
It's just something never mentioned unless HMRC get it wrong!

How odd.

I do no wish to offend any of the many SNP supporters on here, although I undoubtedly will, but I am tired of being told that everything is the fault of the English

Not offended. Just really, really fed up with that English chip.

A Tory MSP was disciplined by the Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament recently for saying Sturgeon was biased against the English. Because like in Westminster, you're not allowed to tell lies in the Chamber.

Aveline

Unfortunately SNP fans don't check facts or even read deeply into documents. They are led by sound bites from Nicola.

I agree Aveline. Many of Nicola Sturgeon's claims have been referred to and are being investigated by the Office for National Statistics. The phrase "she opens her mouth and lets her belly rumble" springs to mind!

Bodach

Alegrias1

Tory are ye?

Or just sarcastic and selfish?

I'm all three, it would seem.
But what I'm not is the least tiny wee bit sanctimonious about my attitude towards paying my taxes - which (are you reading this, HMRC?) I have done faithfully and in full throughout my earning life. So I hope you'll forgive my sceptism when I encounter sweeping statements about Scots being "pleased and proud" to pay their taxes.

That's big of you.

I said most of the Scottish people I know.

I am popular, but I don't know everybody.

So I hope you'll forgive my sceptism when I encounter sweeping statements about Scots being "pleased and proud" to pay their taxes.

Totally agree, Bodach

I shall now duck behind the sofa/go out for the rest of the day, but as a Scot living in England I can report that;

despite what you are told by its supporters, the SNP are not universally popular in Scotland, my family living there report drastic decline in educational standards, health, wellbeing.

The SNP's answer to everything that they do wrong is to blame Westminster, often for responsibilities which are devolved.

Many Scots are stuck between a rock and a hard place with a choice of Tories or SNP, the SNP have swallowed up the Labour vote and a vote for the SNP automatically means a vote for their only policy ie Independence.

Ms Sturgeon has fairy tale economics, and is spinning a story that all will be well, the drug crisis will be cured, hospitals will magically be able to see everyone in time, schools will go back to their previous excellent standards, JUST BY DECLARING INDEPENDENCE. This is a scarily similar fake promise given to Brexit supporters.

I do no wish to offend any of the many SNP supporters on here, although I undoubtedly will, but I am tired of being told that everything is the fault of the English and listening to Ms Sturgeon spinning her web of lies and deceit.

Phew. Sorry, but got to get it off my chest, and of my long suffering relatives who are under her governance