Nicola Sturgeon vows to start process of second independence referendum

Full Fact is a website I discovered thanks to posters on GN. It is often used to press a point home and I've not heard anyone dispute it yet. I think it is without agenda. But if it doesn't suit MaizieD that's fine by me.

I'm just unsure as to how a country as small as Scotland ends up subsidising a country many times its size.

Alegrias1

Tory are ye?

Or just sarcastic and selfish?

I'm all three, it would seem.
But what I'm not is the least tiny wee bit sanctimonious about my attitude towards paying my taxes - which (are you reading this, HMRC?) I have done faithfully and in full throughout my earning life. So I hope you'll forgive my sceptism when I encounter sweeping statements about Scots being "pleased and proud" to pay their taxes.

Putting sense and reason aside, it would probably be good for independence if England (and why does no-one ever say 'and Wales and NI'?) had a vote...

The Welsh and N Irish are just irrelevant, Petera! After-thoughts.

MaizieD

Sorry, the figure for QE should be £800 billion, not £8000 billion. Slip of the fingers...

What a difference a zero makes!

Its not some tactic to tell the tories we dont want them...we've more than proven that by not voting them into power since 1955 ..

How odd, then, that the SNP MPs voted with the then Tory Oppositon to bring down the Labour Government of James Callaghan, resulting in the Tories under Margaret Thatcher winning and forming a government.

GrannyGravy13

A hypothetical question:-

If Scotland becomes independent and consequently joins the EU who will pay for/police the border, will we end up with a similar situation as NI?

One would hope that by that time we will have come to a more sensible arrangement with the EU (rejoined the SM & CU?) which would do away with the stupid border controls we have imposed on ourselves.

Sorry, the figure for QE should be £800 billion, not £8000 billion. Slip of the fingers...

A hypothetical question:-

If Scotland becomes independent and consequently joins the EU who will pay for/police the border, will we end up with a similar situation as NI?

To revert to Zoejory's post at 11.20 where she links to the Full Fact analysis of Scotland's income and expenditure.

I don't know what Paddyanne is basing her claim on, but I have been following Richard Murphy for some years now, a trained accountant and auditor and now a Professsor of Political Economy. He has been critquing GERS (Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland) for a number of years and I refer to his post last year.

He has this to say on tax revenues:

No one actually knows how much profit is made in Scotland and no one will until there is a national account for it.

And no one also knows how much Scottish rent and interest paid is subject to tax in England when it should be taxed in Scotland.

I also think that income and corporation taxes, as well as capital gains taxes and inheritance taxes, are all seriously underpaid in Scotland - because the owners of that income and that wealth in Scotland pay their taxes on it in England.

So, for a start, he is questioning the figures for tax income from Scotland that Full Fact is using.

Then there is the question of allocation of spending to Scotland. Full Fact uses a figure of 9.7% as being the Scottish proportion of the UK population on which allocation is based. Murphy uses 8.1%, I've no idea why they differ, but the effect is the same.

He has broken down the allocations in a table and the figures are surprising. For instance the allocation to 'Public and Common services is 13.7% and there are more that exceed 8.1% (or even 9.7%). Why?

He also points out that in the year he is analysing a large part of English expenditure was not paid from taxation but from £3000 billion of QE (govt created money) but this is not allowed for in the Scottish allocations. Why?

In 2020/21 about £300 billion of the costs of public services in the UK as a whole were not paid for out of taxes. They were paid for by quantitative easing. There is not a single mention of this in the GERS document. But what that means is that actually total spending out of taxes was not £1,094,000 milli0n as the above data implies. They were actually about £800,000 million, or £800 billion.

If anyone wants to read it:

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2021/08/18/why-gers-is-wrong-yet-again/

Ultimately, it seems, the Full Fact analysis is simplistic and based on what are probably inaccurate figures.

Whether or not this 'proves' that Scotland is subsidising England is debateable, but it seriously questions the assertion that they don't.

Well, as I still haven’t had an answer to my question ( it was a question because there was a question mark after it) I will rephrase it.
Before I do, I wish Scotland all the best if it gains Independence, I am 24% Scottish according to my DNA and I have Scottish relatives, so I don’t have an axe to grind and if the majority want to leave the U.K. then let them go.

If Scotland has a vote to declare Independence from the rest of the U.K., will there be 2 questions on the ballot paper?
1. Do you vote for an Independent Scotland ?
2. Do you vote for an independent Scotland and vote yes to rejoin the EU.?
Any thoughts or hasnt it been decided yet?

Alegrias1

^I believe if there is another referendum that's fine. But if it goes against them that's that. No more for a good 20 years.^

This is what is galling, actually.

If it goes against "them". That's it. No more for 20 years.

We're not them. We're the people of Scotland. If the people of Scotland vote no, then no it is. For the time being.

But nobody other than the people of Scotland get to decide when and how often we vote. So any of the chatter about being allowed, or going against them, or any of the rest of that superior nonsense, is just going to push us more towards independence.

And of course referendums are only one way of getting there.

I do however agree that we are bonnie and charming.

Yes, Alegrias1 if it goes against them. As you say, and I agree, it's the people of Scotland that will determine this. However, I am one of them and I am not galled about being referred to as them.

However as it stands I don't think we can call referendums every time we feel like it. Do you really want to see one every year until it got your desired result?

If Westminster allows Ms. Sturgeon yet another referendum and if the Scots vote no again, at what point will she accept defeat or will this keep cropping up ?

It is obviously a total obsession with her.

There are independence supporters who march with blue painted faces and want to stick it to the English, I admit. There are people who think the English are the root of all our problems and the sooner we kick them into touch the better.

Then there's the people who want independence because we see that Scotland is, and always has been a separate country with its own priorities, culture and attitude to governments. Boris has nothing to do with it, although he is helping right now. I've wanted independence for a lot longer than he's been around.

Not wanting independence is a valid position. But ranting on about SNP supporters not understanding what's going on is not acceptable. Propagating the idea that support for independence is the same as support for the SNP is not acceptable. But until the other parties take a more enlightened view of independence, the SNP (or the Greens) get my vote.

Maybe Douglas Ross will rethink his stance now that JRM thinks he's less important to Scotland that Alister Jack.

?…Algerias…..

Alegrias I know very well that you are not thick which makes your position seem odd to me. It's the blind followers that post online and appear on marches that give me the heebiejeebies! Lies if repeated often enough seem to become accepted as the truth. I know you want independence but not necessarily run by SNP. Sadly there's no sign of any other credible potential party. I like being part of the UK. Boris et al will be gone soon enough. Independence now would condemn us to a precarious penury.

I would be sad to see Scotland leave but living in Wales I understand why many Scots want this.
I think they will be fine without England.

Aveline

Unfortunately SNP fans don't check facts or even read deeply into documents. They are led by sound bites from Nicola.

Aye, we're all thick as s**** in a bottle.

I believe if there is another referendum that's fine. But if it goes against them that's that. No more for a good 20 years.

This is what is galling, actually.

If it goes against "them". That's it. No more for 20 years.

We're not them. We're the people of Scotland. If the people of Scotland vote no, then no it is. For the time being.

But nobody other than the people of Scotland get to decide when and how often we vote. So any of the chatter about being allowed, or going against them, or any of the rest of that superior nonsense, is just going to push us more towards independence.

And of course referendums are only one way of getting there.

I do however agree that we are bonnie and charming.

Unfortunately SNP fans don't check facts or even read deeply into documents. They are led by sound bites from Nicola.

As a Scot living in England I can see why Nicola wants another referendum. Friends and relatives there mainly want to stay in the UK. But that's just anecdotal.

I believe if there is another referendum that's fine. But if it goes against them that's that. No more for a good 20 years.

WE are not subsidised ,even before OIL ,several Tory MP's have admitted that without Scotland paying your bills you'd be bankrupt .AND thats why Westminster doesn;t want another referendum ,not because we're bonnie and charming

I decided to Fact Check this business that Scotland subsidises the English. It's untrue. As I think we all know. However I do agree that we're all bonnie and charming.

fullfact.org/economy/scotland-finances-whisky-tax/

I believe that Scotland could make its on their own. Of course they could. As has been mentioned other smaller countries are functioning just fine.

I was about to say why would we ask a comedian to run our country...then I remembered thats who's in charge in Westminster.
There are many Scots who still believe the Westminster tale of too wee ,too poor ,too stupid.Maybe they should look at facts ,
IF we're doing so badly now, that we have a huge defiicit ,UNDER WM rule then we cant fail to do better without WM skimming over half of our revenue for their own projects.
Until 1922 Scottish accounts were published ,of course around them people became more educated and wondered why when we were handing over X amount and only getting a third back with the rest held for "IMPERIAL costs" the publication stopped.
There will be accounts somewhere in WM but theres no chance they will be made public without the jiggery pockery of WM.s accountants that make us look a lost cause.
The accounts up 1922 are available online nowadays ,check them out.Please remember this country has contributed more to the modern world than any other so we dont lack brain power either so Independence supporters ( mainly) dont swallow the old story that the rUK appears to still accept.

WE are not subsidised ,even before OIL ,several Tory MP's have admitted that without Scotland paying your bills you'd be bankrupt .AND thats why Westminster doesn;t want another referendum ,not because we're bonnie and charming

.Though we are ,lol

Remember Scotland always was an independent country until the union of 1707 and even then many Scots were not in favour of bunking up with the Sassenachs who seemed to despise them.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Scottish_sentiment

I find it a bit sad that we can't get along with our neighbours but a carefully drawn divorce package may be the best way to go and we can keep our weather, midges and empty hills to ourselves.

Hasn't Billy Connolly gone the way of Sean Connery and Prince Harry? tax exiles

paddyanne54 I have never said Scotland can’t do it

I did say ^ if the majority vote for independence I wish Scotland well^

I will repeat I would be sad to see Scotland leave the Union.

MaizieD

^The border has shifted at times and I'm sure there would be some who would rather be on the Scots side.^

Indeed, trisher. Preferably to the south of Co. Durham...

The other alternative is we could resurrect the ancient kingdom of Northumbria and demand independence for everyone north of the Humber.

allowed?

????