Holocaust Memorial Day

I just watched the holocaust portrait programme n bbc2. I player. One of the best programmes I have seen in a long time, the stories were so moving and the portraits absolutely stunning.

tickingbird

Maizie. By your reasoning then an awful lot of people in this country are responsible for the Iraq war and the horrors visited on the poor people of that region that were butchered, raped and sold as slaves by ISIS.

I don't think so, tickingbird. The Iraq war was not in prospect when the Labour government was voted in. The Israeli treatment of the Palestinians has been going on for decades. There's a difference between voting for a government knowing what their stance will be on an issue and voting for one that responds, rightly or wrongly, to an unforeseen event.

Maddyone, yes. I struggle with the use of Zionist as a term of abuse. So far as I can understand, At its simplest it means the right of the Jewish people to a homeland. That doesn’t mean supporting the actions of the Israeli govt or some extremist American settlers.
My Jewish friends who arrived at the turn of the 20th century, or on the kinder transport lost all their extended families who remained in Europe in the camps.

My Jewish friend told me she would never visit Germany. Her father was in a concentration camp, her mother ran away from Ukraine into Russia and survived that way. My friend was born in Ukraine and lived there until she 15 and then they escaped.

tickingbird

Of course all Germans weren’t wicked. It’s governments and those in power that are wicked. I’ve seen posters on here criticise Jews because of the actions of the Israeli government and their policies on Palestine. One even commented that ‘they’ vote them in so they’re responsible. There’s prejudice and bias in all cultures, all walks of life, educated or not. In the case of anti semitism many so called educated, enlightened people think it’s justified.

Whoever Israeli people vote for, there is no doubt in my mind that Israel needs to exist. If it had existed before WW2 it would have been difficult for the Holocaust to happen. We shouldn’t forget that thousands of people tried desperately to get out of many of the countries of Europe, in particular Germany and Austria. Other countries often only admitted a few Jewish people per year, thus unwittingly sentencing many to death.
I have visited Auschwitz and Dachau. They are sobering places, and really show how evil humanity can be.
I watched the BBC documentary last night. The portraits were wonderful.

No Vivaldi there are no theoretical paradigms that say criticising the actions of the Israeli government in anti Semitic

Maizie. By your reasoning then an awful lot of people in this country are responsible for the Iraq war and the horrors visited on the poor people of that region that were butchered, raped and sold as slaves by ISIS.

But isn't it dangerous if no-one can criticise the Israeli government without being assumed to be anti semitic? I do not associate individual Jewish people or Judaism as a whole with the Israeli government. If I criticise Israeli policy, I am in no way criticising Jews. (Any more than I'm criticising Buddhists when I deplore the genocide in Myanmar). But I believe there are theoretical paradigms that say that to criticise Israel is anti semitic per se?

One even commented that ‘they’ vote them in so they’re responsible.

I'm sorry, tickingbird, but what makes you think that voting in a government means that you don't have any responsibility for what it does when in power? Don't parties state what they intend to do before people vote?

Of course all Germans weren’t wicked. It’s governments and those in power that are wicked. I’ve seen posters on here criticise Jews because of the actions of the Israeli government and their policies on Palestine. One even commented that ‘they’ vote them in so they’re responsible. There’s prejudice and bias in all cultures, all walks of life, educated or not. In the case of anti semitism many so called educated, enlightened people think it’s justified.

Stories of these camps did filter out of Germany both before and during the war, and Germany's treatment of Jews and other 'undesirables '. The stories were so horrific that people tended to think they were highly exaggerated and couldn't possibly be true. After all Germany and its people was a sophisticated, modern European nation, our own dear RF were, at that point, mostly of German extraction , How could these reports of such appalling behaviour possibly be true? mass murder, gas chambers, little children, old grannies, the helpless, not possible, not from Germany. Of course when the awful truth was confirmed, I think it was a terrible shock which reverberates to this day. My father was killed in this war, but my mother believed very strongly in peace and reconciliation to the effect that we had a German girl to stay with us in 1957, our two families becoming very friendly over the years, and obviously the war was a topic of conversation. Her father had been allocated as part of a firing squad to shoot Jews. He refused and as a punishment was sent to the russian front. He had an appalling time which severely compromised his health, he was lucky to survive. A lovely man, lovely family. Not all Germans were wicked.

Josieann - when I visited Auschwitz/Birkenau, although you cannot fail to be moved by the entire experience, one of the things which really seemed to bring it home to the school pupils I accompanied was towards the end of our visit, and it was the display of family photos which were found in the possessions of those who died there. The young people all remarked how it helped to see them - not in the familiar camp photos as prisoners with striped pyjamas and shaven heads - but as 'ordinary' people in family snapshots. It was food for thought indeed.

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202201/medium-193060-download-jpeg-1.jpg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202201/medium-12284-download-jpeg-2.jpg

I agree with your comment Blondiescot. We can be given all the figures in the world, but it isn't until one name, one photo, one person's life comes to the fore that the message really hits home.

I also found it very touching to go onto the Yad Vashem Twitter account where you could choose to remember one particular Holocaust victim from their Shoah Names Database. Mine was Aizik Gutman, a Polish rabbi. It helps to humanise those who died and remind people that each was a person with their own story to tell - not just a number, one of more than six million who were murdered.

Blondiescot

I didn't see much tv yesterday, but what I did, when Holocaust Memorial Day was mentioned, it was also pointed out that not only is anti-semitism very much still around today, but so is race eradication and genocide, such as what is happening in Myanmar and with the Uighurs, to mention just two examples. Robert Rinder was interviewed on breakfast tv and was at pains to point out that this is very much still an issue even now.

Thanks for this. I’m always rather puzzled when people respond to Holocaust Memorial Day by saying it’s about more than the systematic murder of Jews and whataboutnow.

I watched the programme about these remarkable people. The portraits were beautiful. I just hope they can be loaned out to other galleries all over the country so that we can all have the opportunity to see them.

I didn't see much tv yesterday, but what I did, when Holocaust Memorial Day was mentioned, it was also pointed out that not only is anti-semitism very much still around today, but so is race eradication and genocide, such as what is happening in Myanmar and with the Uighurs, to mention just two examples. Robert Rinder was interviewed on breakfast tv and was at pains to point out that this is very much still an issue even now.

How does that ‘prove’ concerns about anti semitism in the LP during that period were a farce?

As for Corbyn and the Labour Party
^A stunning admission
But now, in early 2022, over two years since the peddlers of the campaign succeeded in derailing Corbyn’s chances of becoming prime minister, one of the mostflagrantoffendersof all has now essentially admitted that the whole thing was a farce all along. Astonishingly, during a radio broadcast ofBBC 5 Live, presenter Rachel Burdensaidmatter-of-factly:
There is absolutely no evidence that the leader of the Labour Party at that time [in 2019], Jeremy Corbyn, was or is antisemitic.^

tickingbird

As a Jewish person I can tell you that anti semitism is on the rise and it just doesn’t create the fuss and outrage that other forms of racist attacks do. I don’t look Jewish and don’t broadcast the fact but the more visible Jews are definitely being targeted, especially in London. This has increased substantially since Corbyn and pals were running the LP.

I don't disagree, Tickingbird, but all forms of racism are on the rise.

As for why do people treat other people like this - they don't see them as human. Alternatively they consider themselves superior, and we see plenty of that in other walks of life, sexism, xenophobia, the castigation of the poor, benefit claimants, single mothers etc.

As a former secondary German teacher, I had to deal with the backlash from Holocaust Day and the teaching of the holocaust. Unfortunately, I don't think it's always taught very well and the message some pupils come away with is that Germans were/are all bad. I used to prepare lessons about Sophie Scholl non Jew, who was executed by the Nazis.

I agree with others that bigotry, stereotyping and racism were the underlying causes of the holocaust - and those issues are still with is.

Looking at the figures you provided in that table trisher, I believe that 50% of those killed in German concentration camps were actually non Jews. It would be far better to have a Genocide day as you suggest so the focus is on all victims not just Jewish.

I think it is far too easy for this to be dismissed as something that happened in history and wouldn't happen today. We need to realise people still die because of their faith or their race.

I understand the horrors of the Holocaust and I don't want to take anything from the memory and the recognition of what happened, but I also think it's time we had a Genocide day when we remember that hatred, persecution and mass murder still happen and are based in discrimination and not accepting differences. It is horrific to look at how many instances of mass slaughter there have been in the 20th century www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/pol116/genocides.htm

MaizieD

Yammy

MaizieD

I think your last sentence would have been better left unsaid, Yammy.

There is antisemitism and other forms of racism all through the population. It is not exclusive to any one organisation.

Personally, having been brought up in the 50s/60s when the Holocaust was a recent experience and pervaded our lives much more than a once a year 'Day', I couldn't understand why Jews were hated so much and still don't (apart from anti Zionism). They're just people, like everyone else in this world.

(I had more of a problem with having anti-German feelings because of popular culture and the Holocaust)

Maybe you do but I don't it shows how racial predudice of any kind can be insidious until it is found out.
We are hopefully look at these matters differently now but it has not always been the case Dickens had his Fagin and Shakespeare his Shylock and Othello. neither were castigated for it.
Race eradication is still being practised in countries like Myanmar.
I was also brought up in the 50's when anti German/Japanese feeling was still strong because of relations and friends lost in both wars but always sympathised with children who had German parents and the verbal abuse they suffered.

What I was getting at, Yammy. is that it isn't just one organisation.

Who do you think attacked 2 Jews today?

twitter.com/search?q=jews%20attacked%20london&src=typeahead_click

It's sadly, and for some unknown reason, pervasive.

I think we are both saying the same thing, it is often in the place you least expect it and I used the Labour party as an example not as the only place.Ticking Bird also mentions the Corbyn era in the labour party.