Val McDermid, Raith Rovers and the Rapist

Chardy

I've been watching live football for 50 years. I've also taught lads who've been attached to football clubs while under 16.
There are players who are aggressive, they are players who are not aggressive at all.. Just like the club managers, just like some of the men I've worked with.
Younger kids are taken by their parents to training a few evenings a week.
Around 15, they are in school most of the time, but may have a day a week at the club, travelling alone/in groups.
Lastly the last few decades, many aspects of the world of work have become aggressive, driven by results - maybe it's football reflecting society.

Chardy Thanks for your experiences I think the problem is that football itself-once the beautiful game- has become a commercial enterprise where money is the main driver. To feed this need it recruits young boys into football academies and promises them much but delivers little. The subsequent bad outcomes it ignores. www.businessinsider.com/michael-calvin-shocking-statistic-why-children-football-academies-will-never-succeed-soccer-sport-2017-6?r=US&IR=T

Good comment Chardy. I dont dispute there are down sides but let’s not forget how much pleasure and fitness football brings

I've been watching live football for 50 years. I've also taught lads who've been attached to football clubs while under 16.
There are players who are aggressive, they are players who are not aggressive at all.. Just like the club managers, just like some of the men I've worked with.
Younger kids are taken by their parents to training a few evenings a week.
Around 15, they are in school most of the time, but may have a day a week at the club, travelling alone/in groups.
Lastly the last few decades, many aspects of the world of work have become aggressive, driven by results - maybe it's football reflecting society.

You keep changing your mind. What you said (on Wed 02-Feb-22 15:11:08) was that you would think more of V McD if she put her money into develop[ing] systems and support that not only deal with men already convicted of rape or assault but build in safe guards to prevent this happening over and over again.

Doodledog

There is nothing wrong with asking those who make the money and run the clubs to do more; but that is not at all the same as expecting Val McDermid or any other donor to insist that money they are giving out of their own pockets has to go to rehabilitation schemes or schemes to keep boys and men on the straight and narrow, and it is this expectation which is being objected to.

It's not rehabilitation! It's education, it's developing emotional intelligence, it's protecting boys from the harm that constantly expecting them to demonstrate agression and to win can do to them.

It's nothing to do with liking or disliking football. The same characteristics appear in many sports, but football is a money spinner and it targets children. This impacts on boys and the men they become. From the link I gave

The masculine social norms imposed upon men and boys in organized sports contribute to a culture of violence, both within the sport and in other contexts (Boeringer, 1999; Brewer & Howarth, 2012; Fine, 1987; Steinfeldt et al., 2012). Research shows that men who participate in sports are more likely to conform to traditional norms of masculinity (Gage, 2008). An aggressive, win-at-all-costs mentality is enforced in sports teams, thus establishing standards of manhood to which the athletes must adhere (Steinfeldt et al., 2012). In other words, the positive regard toward aggression in organized sports, as well as the strong adherence to masculine social norms, breeds a culture of violence. Boys are also taught to take risks and compete aggressively, which assists in establishing violence and aggression as requirements of masculinity (Coulomb-Cabagno & Rascle, 2006)
The evidence has been gathered over many years.

There is nothing wrong with asking those who make the money and run the clubs to do more; but that is not at all the same as expecting Val McDermid or any other donor to insist that money they are giving out of their own pockets has to go to rehabilitation schemes or schemes to keep boys and men on the straight and narrow, and it is this expectation which is being objected to.

Of course the fact some do well doesn’t justify some clubs not properly supporting all the boys (and girls). Aggressive, macho confrontational culture? You really don’t like football do you

Iam64

Some footballers recruited at 9 do very well. Many of The class of 92, MUFC did ok. The Neville brothers, Beckham etc still involved in charitable work locally.
The current crop include Marcus Rashford who credits the club and his mum with changing his life for the good. He’s a great role model, does wonderful work in his community.
Yes, there’s a problem with addiction, gambling, domestic abuse - there is some great work ongoing on those issues. That’s where the work should be, in the clubs. Val McD made a good stand, used her fame to draw attention. The women’s team supported - women influenced, over to the clubs, including the women to say enough of violence towards women

So does the fact that some do well justify the clubs not properly supporting all the boys? By the time the boys are signed to the clubs they have been in an agressive, confrontational, macho culture for 7 years. I can't imagine any other situation where children wouldn't be entitled to proper support.
Of course it's great that women speak out but don't imagine that is going to stop it happening. The best clubs provide the best support but others do very little.

Some footballers recruited at 9 do very well. Many of The class of 92, MUFC did ok. The Neville brothers, Beckham etc still involved in charitable work locally.
The current crop include Marcus Rashford who credits the club and his mum with changing his life for the good. He’s a great role model, does wonderful work in his community.
Yes, there’s a problem with addiction, gambling, domestic abuse - there is some great work ongoing on those issues. That’s where the work should be, in the clubs. Val McD made a good stand, used her fame to draw attention. The women’s team supported - women influenced, over to the clubs, including the women to say enough of violence towards women

If you don't understand how these clubs recruit, how young some of the boys are- 9 is the accepted age, that the club becomes the central influence in the boy's life then you won't understand the culture. The mental health and welfare of these boys is sadly neglected. Those who succeed have problems that manifest themselves in some ways, those who fail have other problems inclusing suicide attempts. Only the first grade of football academies have a dedicated member of staff looking after the boys mental health, grade 2 have a part time person, the rest have no-one.
There is still the perception that I am somehow asking women to do this. I'm not. I'm asking those who make the money who run the clubs regardless of sex to step up and provide the necessary care.
There is some interesting research in America here, linking agression in sport with agression in life wp.nyu.edu/steinhardt-appsych_opus/effects-of-participation-in-sports-on-mens-aggressive-and-violent-behaviors/
I think personal anecdotes are fine but they are just that and don't address the particular problem of footballers.

The case went to civil court in 2016. It was in November 2017 that his high court appeal failed, but he'd signed for Clyde in March 2017.

So shouting and screaming about Goodwillie and blaming me because I realise that actually it is a culture which isn't going to change without someone attatching conditions to the money they invest does absolutely nothing. Quite how realising investment needs to be conditional is asking women "what are you going to do about this" I don't know. It's pointing out that football is a business that exploits children and produces damaged men and it is time it did something about it.

No, trisher. For one thing, we weren't 'shouting and screaming', and for another, you said that you would have been happier with Val Mc Dermid if she had insisted any support she gave should be used to develop programmes that not only deal with men already convicted of rape or assault but build in safeguards to prevent this happening over and over again.

As Chewbacca and others point out, it is not the role of women to sort out men's issues. Plenty of men, including my husband, son, son-in-law and male friends, respect women - these problems are not universal, and women have enough problems of our own without being expected to donate to programmes that help men not to rape. In any case, the sort of men and boys who think it's ok to treat women in this way are not likely to listen to us when we tell them to play nicely and behave, are they?

IMO it is up to men to teach their sons by example, and to teachers to teach more formally, that this behaviour is not acceptable at any stage of the continuum, whether it is sexist 'jokes', pornographic images, coercive sexual behaviour, violence or rape. If that education fails, then organisations of any type should reinforce it by banning those who persist in offending, and ultimately the law (and law enforcers) should step in and stamp it out.

And I am not sure we can start making assumptions about what football does to men without some solid evidence with regards to that. I suspect that it is a societal problem that needs addressing at a societal level. If you look at some of the issues in the Met for example, and that may be a similar type of culture, male dominated profession, 'toughness' etc. You have to unpick the whole culture of male violence across society.

I used to donate to some high profile charities, I stopped because of the abuse carried out by their male staff. My strong suspicion is there was a really unpleasant culture within those charities, with regards to viewing women in poverty in a certain way. I dont hold responsibility for that culture because I donated money.

Trisher, I kind of see some of what you mean. Yet we have decent male footballers like Denis Law and Kenny Dalglish who were good players but are decent people. I really don't know what the answer is but you are correct in that the clubs need to be tackling many issues. I think too many footballers are treated like gods and that leads to problems. Also, the fact that some become famous very quickly and at such a young age, can also lead to issues. Calum Best did a really excellent programme some years ago for Children in Need, joined by his mum. They talk about George Best and the issues they had as a family. It really gives an insight. If you do a Youtube search, you can find it.

If you donate money to an organisation (and Val McDermid has donated money to Raith Rovers for a long time) why is it OK for her to donate that money and only withdraw it when the club signs a convicted rapist? Hasn't she by donating bought into the culture that produced these young men? It's nothing to do with if anyone is a woman or not. If you support the culture, if you fund the culture, if you actively promote the culture, if you are male or female is irrelevant, you have supported rape and violence. I'd say exactly the same thing to anyone investing in football. These"rotten apples" don't come from nowhere. If you teach boys from a young age they are special, if you encourage aggression and confrontation in them, if you educate them to never show weakness but always to win, if you then pay them huge amounts of money they can use to purchase alcohol and drugs, you are breeding young men with problems. All investors be they male or female should be asking that their money is used to help with this. But they won't, because agressive players win matches and make more money and the fall out from their actions off the pitch can sometimes be bought off if enough money is thrown at it. So shouting and screaming about Goodwillie and blaming me because I realise that actually it is a culture which isn't going to change without someone attatching conditions to the money they invest does absolutely nothing. Quite how realising investment needs to be conditional is asking women "what are you going to do about this" I don't know. It's pointing out that football is a business that exploits children and produces damaged men and it is time it did something about it.

Good post, Chewbacca. What you say reminds me of the necessity in some branches of many religions, including Christianity - but not the branch I belong to! - for women to cover their heads or even their faces because otherwise they might lead men astray, the poor wee things. You have to feel sorry for these men who can't control themselves in the presence of such horrible and yet tempting women oh no you don't.

It's the depressing "same old, same old" isn't it? Ever increasing incidents of male rapists, sex abusers, violence against women and children and the stock answer is still the same: "Well women, what are you going to do to rectify this?" Male sports are inherently aggressive, football in particular. Add an over abundance of money, privilege and testosterone fuelled male arrogance that they can demand anything they want and you have a perfect storm for them to demand and women to comply. This is not a woman's problem to resolve. Women don't have to do anything to make this right. This is a male problem and it belongs squarely on their shoulders to sift through the rotten apples, deal with them and stop giving them a free pass because they can kick a ball in a straight line.

Thank you Cold. you said what I started to type yesterday but realised it was pointless, as it would be met with a personal slight and a twisting of what I said. Good luck to you ,

Perhaps footballers could take part in something similar to ‘taking the knee’, with regard to ‘Women’s Lives Matter’, before each match?

trisher - Val McDermid has been a sponsor of Raith Rovers for many years, surely it would be a feminist action to say her money should be used to educate footballers, particularly the club trainees about omen and their right to say "No". It's a bit tough to place this entirely on the shoulders of these boys parents when for many of them the club becomes the main influence in a child's life

Surely it is not up to women to act as rehabilitation centres for the criminal behaviours of entitled and misogynistic men. This is not really an issue of "education" but an issue of football's tolerance for violence committed by men because the macho football establishment rates kicking a ball more highly than women. There have been plenty of campaigns regarding consent in recent years - surely footballers cannot have missed all of them.

Would you be happy if your daughter was a junior player at Raith Rovers and forced to share facilities with a known rapist and violent criminal? David Goodwillie has 3 assault convictions in addition to the finding of rape. The club's selling point was its family atmosphere but obviously women didn't rate very highly.

Val McDermid's decision to shift her support to the women's team is a good one in my opinion.

Doodledog Val McDermid has been a sponsor of Raith Rovers for many years, surely it would be a feminist action to say her money should be used to educate footballers, particularly the club trainees about omen and their right to say "No". It's a bit tough to place this entirely on the shoulders of these boys parents when for many of them the club becomes the main influence in a child's life.
It's interesting that the FA guidelines on children in football and problems make no mention of coping with violence and agression, apart from bullying

Raising awareness of potential vulnerability
5.3.1 Children and young people with disabilities
5.3.2 Children and young people from minority ethnic groups
5.3.3 Female genital mutilation
5.3.4 Forced marriage
5.3.5 Honour based violence
5.3.6 Supporting lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender young people 5.3.7 Children and young people who take on leadership roles Dealing with bullying
5.4.1 Bullying as a result of any form of discrimination
5.4.2 Cyberbullying
5.4.3 Taking a proactive approach
Reducing the potential for vulnerability

Perhaps it's time awareness of agression and rape was on that list

Concerns were raised at the time when Clyde signed Goodwillie, but whether their supporters weren't quite so vocal or determined, the club basically ignored the protests and the whole thing died down. Perhaps Raith thought the same thing would happen this time too - despite having been warned before signing him that it would be a bad move. Obviously, as has been pointed out, there has also been a major change in the way violence towards women and sexual assault is perceived in the intervening years too.

From what I've read Aveline, When Goodwillie was signed by Clyde in March 2017, the club attracted considerable criticism – similar to that now being levelled at Raith – after the player was branded a rapist in a civil court.

However, British women have changed considerably since 2017; there has been the Me Too movement plus several high profile incidences where women have been sexually abused, raped and murdered. The mood has changed dramatically and women are now being more vocal that it's no longer acceptable to sweep these crimes under the rug and for men to carry on regardless. Men are being held to account.