Ukraine

I think most people fleeing Ukraine will want to be in the Baltic states as they will want to return at some stage to reclaim their properties if possible.

Rosie51

Her attitude may stink, but nobody, even Priti Patel, is responsible for what her parents thought or did. Bringing her parents into the equation is unfair unless it's used in an attempt to somehow absolve her, which I'd hotly disagree with.

But her parents left one country to start a new life here. Something she’s now denying other people the opportunity to do. That’s what I don’t understand.

Bit harsh there DaisyMae.
We are allowed different opinions on this forum. Sorry if mine don’t chime with yours. Why do you say I’m trying to look ‘big and clever’?
Jeez.

I know that the past few years have all been about identifying another and blaming them for perceived problems, but we should drop that now and not give Putin an inch. To do otherwise is help our enemy in the propaganda war.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

Urmstongran

I’m not WWmk2 but they were slow to react. Their inaction was embarrassing. But I dare say heavily reliant on gas from Russia stayed their hand and I can understand that. Bet Merkel regrets standing down on nuclear power. That said, we are not much better here with our net zero push.

They did not show inaction. They showed planning. We are not children and this is not a game.

Re: Urmstongran Sat 26-Feb-22 22:01:17

Sanctions "which only affect oligarchs and other rich Russians and organisations" are NOT meaningless. They are not the only thing the allies are doing.

"And excluding Russian companies from half the the worlds financial system still leaves the other half, and will also push Russia and China closer together." But this is not what has happened, is it? For a start, and in a way we have not seen in the past, Russia is not showing a single opinion, the people are bravely speaking out. Then we have China abstaining in the UN Security Council resolution condemning Russia. This sends a huge and unexpected message to Putin that he cannot afford to completely ignore.

"Sanctions should actually be targeted at ordinary Russians, so that the whole nation can feel the effects of the Kremlin's brutality and lies and see beyond them." Sanctions will affect 'ordinary Russians'. However, I would assume the intention is to split Russia not, as your suggestion would do, push the whole country together against the allies of Ukraine.

When I read your posts Urmstongran, it seems you always want extreme reactions either from our own population or elsewhere. They do not necessarily achieve the outcome you want nor does it always obtain what you personally seem to want, that of looking big and clever.

Urmstongran

I’m not WWmk2 but they were slow to react. Their inaction was embarrassing. But I dare say heavily reliant on gas from Russia stayed their hand and I can understand that. Bet Merkel regrets standing down on nuclear power. That said, we are not much better here with our net zero push.

Their apparent inaction is because they have done nothing like this since the Nazi’s - of course they are going to hesitate.

But it simply shows just how serious the situation is becoming.

Urmstongran

I’m not WWmk2 but they were slow to react. Their inaction was embarrassing. But I dare say heavily reliant on gas from Russia stayed their hand and I can understand that. Bet Merkel regrets standing down on nuclear power. That said, we are not much better here with our net zero push.

It really is a much better look you know in times such as this when we have an identifiable enemy to stick together.

I know that the past few years have all been about identifying another and blaming them for perceived problems, but we should drop that now and not give Putin an inch. To do otherwise is help our enemy in the propaganda war.

Of course we can disagree about strategy and our way forward, but no chink should be shown in our armoury.

I’m not WWmk2 but they were slow to react. Their inaction was embarrassing. But I dare say heavily reliant on gas from Russia stayed their hand and I can understand that. Bet Merkel regrets standing down on nuclear power. That said, we are not much better here with our net zero push.

Urmstongran

I suspect the Germans have put too much faith in the EU dream, that military strength was a byproduct of economic strength, and that there would never be need for a German military tradition. How wrong they are….

I see that they are sending military aid to Ukraine - the first time it has done such a thing since WW2.

Do not underestimate any country’s reaction.

When we are threatened with a deadly enemy we will react.

Grany

There should be no expansion of NATO to Russian borders breaking the Cold War agreement with Russia

NATO has been involved with UK and its allies in wars in many places.
So stop NATO expansion

UK and allies been involved in failed wars for over 30 years.

Return to peaceful negotiations sanctions are not the answer which led to wars as in Iraq Afghanistan

Weirdly if Russia takes Ukraine, it will be Russia taking its border towards NATO.

I suspect the Germans have put too much faith in the EU dream, that military strength was a byproduct of economic strength, and that there would never be need for a German military tradition. How wrong they are….

More countries joining NATO does not break any treaties. Gorbachev has confirmed that and he was there when the treaties were set up.

Peaceful negotiations would be great if Putin would pick up the phone. But he won't.

People who say these things are apologists for war mongers.

There should be no expansion of NATO to Russian borders breaking the Cold War agreement with Russia

NATO has been involved with UK and its allies in wars in many places.
So stop NATO expansion

UK and allies been involved in failed wars for over 30 years.

Return to peaceful negotiations sanctions are not the answer which led to wars as in Iraq Afghanistan

Oz Katerji
@OzKaterji
·
50m
Good morning world, this is Kyiv reporting in.

This city is still standing. This city is still resisting. This city is still strong.

We are still here.

We will remain here.

Rosie51

Her attitude may stink, but nobody, even Priti Patel, is responsible for what her parents thought or did. Bringing her parents into the equation is unfair unless it's used in an attempt to somehow absolve her, which I'd hotly disagree with.

Sorry, Rosie51, but I suspect that she was probably greatly influenced by her parents and Ukip speaks volumes.
Disagree all you like. I really don't care.

Her attitude may stink, but nobody, even Priti Patel, is responsible for what her parents thought or did. Bringing her parents into the equation is unfair unless it's used in an attempt to somehow absolve her, which I'd hotly disagree with.

MaizieD

^Priti Patel's parents, I believe, fled persecution^

Priti Patel's parents 'fled' nothing. They emigrated to the UK from Uganda in the 1960s. Idi Amin didn't become president until 1971. He expelled the Ugandan Asians in 1972, the year that she was born in the UK.

I think this is why she cannot comprehend the idea of fleeing from persecution or anything else. She has no experience of it, even at second hand.

I didn't know that (haven't researched much) - I believed they were victims of Amin - and I do remember that era. I thought Uganda's "indophobia" started long before Amin, during the period of "Africanisation". Or maybe I'm mixing it up with the earlier expulsion of the Kenyan minority.

Her attitude still stinks though.

MayBee70

MerylStreep

MayBee70
Her parents were born in India.
Her father once stood for Ukip.

Ok. So they are absolved from having compassion for the people in the country they lived in because they weren’t born there….

Don't you think that standing for Ukip explains a great deal?

MerylStreep

MayBee70
Her parents were born in India.
Her father once stood for Ukip.

Ok. So they are absolved from having compassion for the people in the country they lived in because they weren’t born there….

MayBee70

But surely her parents would have been horrified at what was happening to the people from their country of birth and would have instilled in her some sort of compassion ? What sort of parents were they?

At dinner tonight I mentioned about Priti Patel and her apparent lack of compassion in insisting on visas etc for fleeing Ukrainians. One of the group, a most peaceable and reasonable man told me what he thought of Priti Patel. I can’t possibly say on here as pearls would be clutched and scattered!!

MayBee70
Her parents were born in India.
Her father once stood for Ukip.

But surely her parents would have been horrified at what was happening to the people from their country of birth and would have instilled in her some sort of compassion ? What sort of parents were they?

Priti Patel's parents, I believe, fled persecution

Priti Patel's parents 'fled' nothing. They emigrated to the UK from Uganda in the 1960s. Idi Amin didn't become president until 1971. He expelled the Ugandan Asians in 1972, the year that she was born in the UK.

I think this is why she cannot comprehend the idea of fleeing from persecution or anything else. She has no experience of it, even at second hand.

Last comment from me tonight....

Sanctions which only affect oligarchs and other rich Russians and organisations are meaningless - If your personal fortune is $100Bn, then how does confiscating $30Bn of it change anything?

And excluding Russian companies from half the the worlds financial system still leaves the other half, and will also push Russia and China closer together. So the sanctions announced so far are just posturing - they only work if they hurt, and these just won't.

Sanctions should actually be targeted at ordinary Russians, so that the whole nation can feel the effects of the Kremlin's brutality and lies and see beyond them. We can't win the military battle, but we might be able to win the battle for hearts and minds, and force change. In my opinion.