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Julia Hartley-Brewer v Stella Creasy

(473 Posts)
Chestnut Tue 01-Mar-22 23:13:56

So Stella Creasy MP is still bringing her baby to work and whingeing about Parliament not being child-friendly. I must say I agree with Julia Hartley-Brewer here. Parliament is not the place for babies. Is anyone on Ms Creasy's side?
Julia Hartley-Brewer attacks Labour MP Stella Creasy

growstuff Sun 06-Mar-22 11:32:23

MaizieD

^People who have stayed at home, not paying tax and having their NI contributions paid for them have been able to do so only because other people went to work and made those contributions whilst also paying for commuting and childcare out of their salaries.^

This is complete and utter, breathtaking, nonsense. Taxation doesn't fund spending, it doesn't fund whatever DD imagines SAHMs benefit from at the expense of mothers who work in paid employment. And the payment of income tax and NICs are not a measure of the worth of an individual.

So it's not only nonsense but it is suggesting that a SAHM is some sort of parasite on those who are in paid employment. They no doubt join the nation's list of scroungers and shirkers.. It's downright insulting.

I disagree with you (and, yes, I am fully aware that taxation doesn't fund spending).

How do you suggest that a person's healthcare and children's education is funded, if tax and NICs aren't being paid? Obviously, there are indirect taxes, but they're only part of the money which finds its way back to the Treasury.

Who repays student loans if a graduate isn't working?

I don't agree that an economically inactive person is a scrounger or a parasite. I think that we as a society have an obligation to make sure that children are well cared for, but there are costs to society involved. One of those is that at least one parent is possibly not contributing as much to the Treasury as others and most people accept that. I think we should have heavily subsidised childcare for those who choose to work.

Aveline Sun 06-Mar-22 10:44:33

A lot comes down to the availability and cost of childcare. Most jobs are not exactly highflying and hourly paid jobs hardly cover childcare costs. I suspect that a lot of women struggle on with a patchwork of childcare made up of nurseries and pre and after school clubs, aunts, grannies and neighbours. However, it's time limited. Children grow older and need less 'babysitting' as time goes on.
I suspect that a patchwork of childcare provision will always be needed.

volver Sun 06-Mar-22 10:08:41

Indeed. If only all organisations were forward-thinking enough to take that view.

Germanshepherdsmum Sun 06-Mar-22 10:07:10

The pandemic has changed working practices enormously. Where previously it would have been unthinkable for people not to come into the office every day, employers have had to accept that, as their employees have successfully wfh for many months, they are just not going to get them to come back in every working day. Whether or not the nature of your work means that you are able to the couple in tailor your hours in the way that your example does is another matter though. The nature of the work has to be suitable for that in the first place. Hers obviously is, as is her husband's.

volver Sun 06-Mar-22 09:54:25

Well my takeaway was that she is working for an organisation that recognised her talents and provided her and their other employees with the means to balance their lives between working and childcare.

Can you imagine telling people a generation ago that the leaders of projects for designing radars for the defence industry could "do it from home"? I'm glad some organisation are looking for flexible ways of doing things and I hope other organisations will follow suit.

Germanshepherdsmum Sun 06-Mar-22 09:50:36

Wfh is pretty common now volver. Clearly this woman is in a job where wfh is entirely feasible. Same with my son and daughter in law who now go into their jobs as solicitors in London only 2 days a week and wfh the rest of the time. However there are a great many jobs where wfh is completely impossible. The only 'take away' from this is that she and her husband share the childcare equally which is good, and why shouldn't they if they can both wfh?

volver Sun 06-Mar-22 09:42:07

Why flexible working is a good thing...

www.scotsman.com/news/defence/balancing-work-and-life-is-made-easy-for-engineering-expert-3598175

TL;DR: Mother of 2 responsible for new radar system for fighter jets, balances child care with protecting British airspace.

MaizieD Sun 06-Mar-22 09:11:59

People who have stayed at home, not paying tax and having their NI contributions paid for them have been able to do so only because other people went to work and made those contributions whilst also paying for commuting and childcare out of their salaries.

This is complete and utter, breathtaking, nonsense. Taxation doesn't fund spending, it doesn't fund whatever DD imagines SAHMs benefit from at the expense of mothers who work in paid employment. And the payment of income tax and NICs are not a measure of the worth of an individual.

So it's not only nonsense but it is suggesting that a SAHM is some sort of parasite on those who are in paid employment. They no doubt join the nation's list of scroungers and shirkers.. It's downright insulting.

DaisyAnne Sun 06-Mar-22 08:36:47

Callistemon21

^Some can't afford to stay at home, and it must be galling for them to see others doing so at their expense^

I am wondering in what way being a SAHM cost others to fund me? I did not have NI paid and my DH was working, paying tax and NI. I worked and paid NI for ten years before having a family, did not receive HRP and returned to work when our youngest DC was six.

I do not feel guilt; my DC have always worked since leaving education too.

The campaign isn't about one person, is it? The campaign is about how our government supports all parents and society.

It is about how we need to change to support a changing society. It is not about what our lives were like decades ago, with children or without when we were young.

Society has changed because the majority wanted or needed that change. Some seem to want to stand in the way of what that majority see as progress.

growstuff Sat 05-Mar-22 23:31:43

Callistemon21

^People who have stayed at home, not paying tax and having their NI contributions paid for them have been able to do so only because other people went to work and made those contributions whilst also paying for commuting and childcare out of their salaries^
That may be the case now but it was not always so.

Home Responsibilities Protection was not introduced until 1978.

HRP isn't the issue.

growstuff Sat 05-Mar-22 23:30:52

Callistemon21

And just to add - we are now funding other young families through our taxes.
That's how it works smile

If both parents in the young families are working, they are paying taxes and funding you and any NHS treatment you receive. That's how it works!

Lucca Sat 05-Mar-22 23:09:15

Good post Doodledog.

Callistemon21 Sat 05-Mar-22 22:47:28

And just to add - we are now funding other young families through our taxes.
That's how it works smile

Callistemon21 Sat 05-Mar-22 21:36:08

Some can't afford to stay at home, and it must be galling for them to see others doing so at their expense

I am wondering in what way being a SAHM cost others to fund me? I did not have NI paid and my DH was working, paying tax and NI. I worked and paid NI for ten years before having a family, did not receive HRP and returned to work when our youngest DC was six.

I do not feel guilt; my DC have always worked since leaving education too.

Callistemon21 Sat 05-Mar-22 21:27:36

People who have stayed at home, not paying tax and having their NI contributions paid for them have been able to do so only because other people went to work and made those contributions whilst also paying for commuting and childcare out of their salaries
That may be the case now but it was not always so.

Home Responsibilities Protection was not introduced until 1978.

Aveline Sat 05-Mar-22 21:17:33

Doodledog has summed up the situation very well. Personally, I'd have hesitated to take a young baby to a crowded environment during Covid. I suspect Creasy was just trying to make a point but it would be OK. Probably better for MPs not to comment on it at all as that was just what she wanting. The baby wasn't doing anyone any harm after all.

Callistemon21 Sat 05-Mar-22 19:50:43

volver

By-election.

I'm sorry. I know its not done to correct spelling, but it's so distracting.

Oh, really!
No, it is not done.
Perhaps it was autocorrect again eg Algeria used to pop up sometimes

Callistemon21 Sat 05-Mar-22 19:46:47

SIL

Callistemon21 Sat 05-Mar-22 19:46:31

DaisyAnne

I can't believe that most people do not know couples where a man is at home with the children more than the woman. Why concentrate on "women" rather than parents. Times have changed folks. The more you divide society - as some seem intent on doing - the fewer babies we will see. Women are voting with their wombs. More so in Germany than here but it is happening here too.

No, I don't but know DS and DIL share care as do DD and SI.

I do know some unreconstructed younger males too.

Some abandon their families and leave their partners to cope on their own too.

The more you divide society - as some seem intent on doing - the fewer babies we will see

The Earth may survive!

DaisyAnne Sat 05-Mar-22 19:30:35

I can't believe that most people do not know couples where a man is at home with the children more than the woman. Why concentrate on "women" rather than parents. Times have changed folks. The more you divide society - as some seem intent on doing - the fewer babies we will see. Women are voting with their wombs. More so in Germany than here but it is happening here too.

trisher Sat 05-Mar-22 19:11:30

Callistemon21

^The maternity leave would only ever apply to a women, the changing parties is an established male prerogative. One again male values dominate our parliament^

Women MPs have crossed the floor too, not as many, less than 50.
But that throws up another question - should there be a bi- election as the MP may not then represent what their voters wanted?

Of course women have taken advantage of the system established by men, That doesn't mean that it was a woman friendly policy. It was established by men for the benefit of men, women have just used it. And yes possibly there should be a by-election but there isn't, and yet the maternity cover would only last a limited time unlike the floor crossing which is permanent.

DaisyAnne Sat 05-Mar-22 19:05:02

Iam64

Why is maternity leave (or paternity leave) impossible for MPs?
Creasy is advocating better family friendly hours in the HoC, as are many other MPs

We need subsidised high quality child care for pre schoolers. Breakfast, after school and holiday clubs for school age children. We need to focus on parents/carers rather than mothers being seen as the parent who goes part time, stops working etc
She’s a brave woman to make herself the target of so much criticism for drawing attention to these issues

I could not agree more.

What I don't understand is why people think it is so difficult. Other countries do it.

Doodledog Sat 05-Mar-22 18:56:41

I don't think that all employers can offer 24/7 childcare, and I wouldn't necessarily want to see that happen, as it would put pressure onto parents, and more particularly mothers, to fit their family around work, rather than the other way round.

To me, there are two separate issues. The first is that everyone, whether or not they are parents, should be able, as far as possible, to plan their time and make arrangements knowing what their working hours are going to be. Clearly, this won't apply to everyone - police officers, and others who might be doing something unpredictable at the end of a shift won't be able to do that, but most people should. This would allow people to have childcare in place if they need it, and would also allow them to do things outside of work if they want to do that. Having everyone unable to make plans for anything (looking after parents, walking a dog, joining a choir, whatever) doesn't make for a cohesive society, and there is usually no need. On the odd occasion that someone needs to go into their workplace out of hours, I feel that their flexibility should be matched by flexibility from the employer.

The second, and more emotive issue is the one about SAH parents. I think that there should be choice in the matter, but I don't think that it's right to pretend that these choices are cost-neutral. Someone has to pay if capable members of the workforce are not contributing to the collective purse. People often say that they contribute in other ways, by keeping house and by volunteering, but working parents (and non-parents) also volunteer and also have family and housekeeping responsibilities - they are not peculiar to those who are at home during the day.

People who have stayed at home, not paying tax and having their NI contributions paid for them have been able to do so only because other people went to work and made those contributions whilst also paying for commuting and childcare out of their salaries. We don't have a system which asks the working parent to contribute on behalf of the SAH one, yet both parents have access to all the things paid for out of tax and NI, as do their children. I am not saying that this should not happen, but I find it astounding that those who have made the choice to stay at home can be so rude to the people who have worked to allow that choice to be made, and take the moral high ground by suggesting that working parents have let down their children - or worse, that there was 'no point' in having them if for part of the day they would be cared for by someone else.

As has been said, not all parents work because they want to. Some can't afford to stay at home, and it must be galling for them to see others doing so at their expense. Others could afford to stay at home but prefer to have financial independence, or may have other reasons for wanting to earn money or to go to work. Yet others are lucky enough to have a job that they enjoy, and feel that they, and therefore their children, will be happier if they are able to continue in their work - being brought up by a resentful parent is no picnic.

Similarly, there will be SAH parents who believe that they are the only people who should be around their children, others who didn't have a fulfilling career and prefer to be 'at home' (I realise that SAH parents are not tied to the house grin ), and yet others who would earn very little after childcare, commuting, tax and NI have been paid, so don't see it as worth their while.

None of the above is 'wrong', IMO, but neither is any of the choices morally superior, or any of the effects on the children absolute. In my experience, most children love their parents (even the rubbish ones), and wouldn't hurt them by saying that they wish they had done things differently and worked or not worked - what happened for them was just the way it was.

growstuff Sat 05-Mar-22 18:43:56

JaneJudge

I really don't understand why taking a sleeping baby in a sling in the middle of the night to vote is such a big deal. It's not like the PM took all his children in with him to vote, I could understand the logistical problems with that

Maybe because the anti-woke brigade have to have something to moan about.

growstuff Sat 05-Mar-22 18:42:53

Callistemon21

^Why is maternity leave (or paternity leave) impossible for MPs?^
Creasy is advocating better family friendly hours in the HoC, as are many other MPs

Fair enough; they should have the same rights in law as other parents - they passed the laws.
How would that work - parental leave cover would require a bi-election?

She is in a peculiar job with specific working conditions and an absent husband. Her fight does not apply to most working parents, it is quite unique in fact.

What about 24/7 365 pa provision for all working parents?
Who pays? Who provides the cover?

Suella Braverman had maternity cover because she's a government minister. Stella Creasy didn't get it because she's only a backbencher. How is that fair?