Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

What is 'the GC community?'

I'm still wondering what my 'belief system' (according to you) is based on, and to what 'standards' I supposedly hold transpeople.

Major error in my typing

1) Should read, 'None of the gays and lesbians I know...'

It is worrying that you cannot see this and quite upsetting for gays and lesbians to be lumped in together by you with the ill-intentioned trans who are doing so much damage to trans acceptance.

1) None of the gays and lesbians are GC. None. Now, I accept there will be some that are. However, you make it sound as if the entire gay community feel this way. They don't.

2) I think 'ill-intentioned trans' are in a tiny minority. Probably a fraction of less than 1%. And that tiny number will include (as I said above) cis men, using it as a disguise to commit crime.

But the GC community would rather focus on that tiny percentage, which includes cis men/criminals. I just don't see that logic.

GGJ
what happened and is still happening with gays was and is wrong. The fact that now some of the attacks come from some of the trans community is even worse.

However, the main difference between gays and ill-intentioned trans is that gay men and lesbians want freedom and acceptance to be what they are.
They, along with MOST trans do not want to take away existing rights from females who already have freedom to be what they are. They don’t seek to cheat in sport to the detriment of females, get jobs under false pretences to the detriment of females or demand access to places set up for vulnerable females unless they are vulnerable females themselves. (Note my acknowledgement that trisher may want to mention females can also be violent.)

It is worrying that you cannot see this and quite upsetting for gays and lesbians to be lumped in together by you with the
ill-intentioned trans who are doing so much damage to trans acceptance.

Of course it has bearing on 'modern' issues. The anti-gay stuff was going on 10 years ago. Hardly the stone ages.

And the same old same old is happening with trans, now.

Nothing changes. The process is painful.

trisher has acknowledged that her response to my post was based on a misunderstanding, but you are continuing to bluster and (presumably) stand by your gaslighting?

I'm aware that I often disagree with you DD, but actually, that comment wasn't aimed at you on this occasion. I was refuting the claim that all the rudeness on here came from the IF, when IMO, it's from the GC and I quoted a few posts. None of which were yours.

I could go back and add one of yours if you like? ? ?

It's beyond me. Sadly, I'm old enough to remember when the obsession was on homosexuality, 'It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve', 'Attack on the funamental nature of marriage' and on and on

Yawn.
Are you not going to bring in the days when people believed in possession by evil spirits? That has about as much bearing on modern-day issues as the tired old cliches about homophobia (which is very much in evidence from TRAs, but you never address that).

Sorry - rubbish formatting above.

Also, the first half of the post was in reply to trisher, and the second to GagaJo.

I'm really not going to read or comment on whatever is going on between you and Gagajo I have enough problems trying to keep up the conversations I'm part of.
Fair enough. I don't blame you, except that your comment about my mentioning DARVO came as a result of her ridiculous defence of the post that you accepted was based on a misunderstanding.

And she's quite capable of answering for herself.
Really? IME *GagaJo refuses to answer questions, and rarely adds anything except for support of your own posts. But you're right - you are not interchangeable.

We intersectional feminists tend to stand up for ourselves and don't need cheerleaders or yea-sayers.
? No comment.

I can only imagine the responses if the very rude remarks listed above had been aimed at the GC. But aimed at IF, they're fine?
trisher has acknowledged that her response to my post was based on a misunderstanding, but you are continuing to bluster and (presumably) stand by your gaslighting?

I guess that is why virtually no-one wants to engage with the GC on these threads.
It's possible. But it is equally possible that the opposite is true - and you are conveniently forgetting that virtually no-one is engaging with the TRAs either.

You hold two entirely different standards for yourself and for IF. But then, that is the belief system you buy into for trans people too, so...
Perhaps you could explain what you mean by that? It makes no sense to me. Which standards do I (or anyone else on these threads) have for trans people? What is my 'belief system'?

I totally agree about individuals using the cloak of trans in order to commit crimes. However, given that what they really are is cis men, looking for a way to cheat the patriarchal system, surely it's better to double down on the real issue? Trans isn't the issue. Cis men are. Yet the obsession is with trans.

It's beyond me. Sadly, I'm old enough to remember when the obsession was on homosexuality, 'It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve', 'Attack on the funamental nature of marriage' and on and on

I'm just a down to earth, basics, sort of person.
That’s nice trisher.

GGJ it isn’t possible to engage with people, whatever name, acronym or abbreviation they call themselves and others by, when they defend the actions of all trans women, even when others are saying that they only don’t accept the actions of ill-intentioned trans women. I don’t need to explain what those actions are you’ve contributed to enough of these posts and maybe even read some of them to know what those ill intentioned actions are.
But as trisher is wont to say, the sun is shining - and that’s nice GGJ.

I can only imagine the responses if the very rude remarks listed above had been aimed at the GC. But aimed at IF, they're fine?

I guess that is why virtually no-one wants to engage with the GC on these threads. You hold two entirely different standards for yourself and for IF. But then, that is the belief system you buy into for trans people too, so...

I've just read the Guardian article on transgender men/women trying to flee Ukraine rather than stay and help to defend their country. The final paragraph stated “I want to be free to do what I want in life. I'd hazard a guess that 99.99% of the rest of Ukrainians want the exact same thing: hence their determination to stay and contribute in any way they can so that they can all be free to do what they want in life.

Doodledog

trisher

Isn't it funny how all the allegations of gaslighting DARVOing and every other kind of persecution you can imagine comes from the gender critical. It might be considered part of a pattern of perceived persecution. but actually it's probably just a way of trying to counter perfectly reasonable posts. If you can't question the content claim you are being persecuted. They'll probably say I'm doing something similar now. It's very hard to discuss anything under these terms. Of course some are free to throw abuse about whenever they like.

As soon as you start with 'some people' you lose the moral high ground.

Please look at GagaJo's response to my post and your reaction to it, and tell me how that doesn't fit the classic DARVO strategy?

oh I've never had (and never wanted) "the moral high ground". I'm just a down to earth, basics, sort of person.

I'm really not going to read or comment on whatever is going on between you and Gagajo I have enough problems trying to keep up the conversations I'm part of. And she's quite capable of answering for herself. We intersectional feminists tend to stand up for ourselves and don't need cheerleaders or yea-sayers.

Ilovecheese Tue 15-Mar-22 16:32:58
VioletSky It would perhaps be better if you actually read the book before repeating other people's take on it.
GagaJo you really think this counts as abusive? It's a perfectly reasoned response to someone criticising a work they haven't even read. When trisher does her links, would you accept someone saying they hadn't read them but knew they were rubbish, or lies or whatever?

Trisher I agreed with your post. You said
Do you not realise that men who behave like that will do the same to any women
Granted I change men to males, because some posters haven’t yet defined what a man (AHM) or a woman (AHF) exactly what a man or a woman is, but I was agreeing that males who do what you mentioned are wrong, whether they are abusing females or other males.
Any males likely to have the intention of behaving like that, should not be allowed in women safe spaces and I’m sure that you would agree with that.
I hope you aren’t referring to me as gender critical. I don’t call you inappropriate names so it would be a pleasant courtesy if you didn’t do the same.

Chewbacca

There's been no abuse on the GC side trisher, but there has been an endless supply of links, data extracts from verifiable sources, copies of published papers from respected academics, references to verifiable news links to support the fact that a human being cannot change their biological sex. On the TRA side there has been far less hard empirical evidence provided but considerably more anecdotal evidence, emotional blackmail to be kind and considerate and more than a little name calling of transphobia, homophobia and being "unkind" and not allowing people to be their "authentic selves".

Natal women want to be their "authentic selves" too. They want to feel safe, protected where they need to be, able to compete in a sport where the playing field is level and not to have their identities reduced to the sum of their ovaries and it's functions. Trans women need to find their own spaces and their own identities; not demand that women move over, make space, shut up and accept that they will suffer losses of their own rights.

Well said, Chewbacca.

Counting the column inches on either side of a debate is not statistical analysis, GagaJo. Nor is it evidence of anything other than support for one point of view over another. It doesn't make the minority view either right or 'shouted down', particularly when those taking that view opt out of answering basic questions.

Chewbacca

There's been no abuse on the GC side trisher, but there has been an endless supply of links, data extracts from verifiable sources, copies of published papers from respected academics, references to verifiable news links to support the fact that a human being cannot change their biological sex. On the TRA side there has been far less hard empirical evidence provided but considerably more anecdotal evidence, emotional blackmail to be kind and considerate and more than a little name calling of transphobia, homophobia and being "unkind" and not allowing people to be their "authentic selves".

Natal women want to be their "authentic selves" too. They want to feel safe, protected where they need to be, able to compete in a sport where the playing field is level and not to have their identities reduced to the sum of their ovaries and it's functions. Trans women need to find their own spaces and their own identities; not demand that women move over, make space, shut up and accept that they will suffer losses of their own rights.

From page 1. That do you?

Riverwalk Tue 15-Mar-22 15:28:14
Oh, give over with the faux ignorance... you're a scientist.

Ilovecheese Tue 15-Mar-22 16:32:58
VioelSky It would perhaps be better if you actually read the book before repeating other people's take on it.

Gossamerbeynon1945 Tue 15-Mar-22 16:34:34
Go and read "Women Won't Wheesht". Try educating yourself. You know and I know that no-one can change sex, and I think a lot of TRA's know, too. Gametes!

QuoteGillT57 Tue 15-Mar-22 17:29:40
Well that didn't take long. Within minutes we have someone who hadn't even read the bloody book carping on with all sorts of silly conspiracies about why J K Rowling chose to use a nom de plume. Of no relevance and no help.

Doodledog I don't know what politically motivated vested interests you are referring to.
I am referring to the ones who want to dismantle sex-based advances that women fought for for years, and replace them with so-called 'gender-based' (ie optional) ones.

There may be a few transpeople who like new converts try to change everyone else, but I would imagine most are caring people.
I don't think that transpeople want to convert anyone - that would be ridiculous - but neither do I think that the TRA movement is spearheaded by genuine transpeople. I think that it is led by anti-feminists, and most of those are not 'caring people' - not when it comes to caring about women, anyway.

It is early days in open trans medication and like most medical matters it is probably not absolutely perfect yet,
True, which is why many people feel that medication should not be given to children.

But it is a fact that children denied access to good care and counselling will resort to ordering drugs on-line and that is much more dangerous.
No, that is not 'a fact' ?. Some of them may, but not all children (by any means) are allowed to have full and free access to the Internet to the point where they can order drugs online. Most children grow up in caring families with adequate supervision, and wouldn't know where to access such drugs, which are, in any case, illegal for good reason. Before you ridicule me and suggest that I am unaware of 'reality', please show me anything that might back up that 'fact'?

I would add a proviso to the opt out clause. I think you would need evidence of being a pacifist and not just because you are changing from one gender to another .

trisher

Whitewavemark2

trisher

Whitewavemark2

GrannyGravy13

Unfortunately Whitewavemark2 where you have natal females fighting/frontline then rape and assault by the opposition becomes part of war.

It always has regardless. It is used as a weapon of war.

Women have always be subjected to this type horror in war time.

We can’t as females expect equality, but opt out of stuff we don’t like.

Just the same as those trundling along the Male/female spectrum.

But females aren't equal in Ukraine now they are permitted to leave the country.

That is a big statement, I’m sure that a Ukrainian female would disagree.

How can she disagree? Men can't leave the country, women can how is that equal?

People may or may not choose to fight

Subjecting anyone to intrusive and abusive searches for no real reason is always wrong.

Men with dependent children where there is no mother etc. can leave the country.

If you choose not to defend your country by fighting that is your prerogative, but you can help in so many ways whilst those willing to give up their lives for your freedom beaver away. You can become a medic, or a cook or any number of myriad things. But not potter off to another country to sit it out whilst hell is being released on your fellow countrymen and women.

There's been no abuse on the GC side trisher, but there has been an endless supply of links, data extracts from verifiable sources, copies of published papers from respected academics, references to verifiable news links to support the fact that a human being cannot change their biological sex. On the TRA side there has been far less hard empirical evidence provided but considerably more anecdotal evidence, emotional blackmail to be kind and considerate and more than a little name calling of transphobia, homophobia and being "unkind" and not allowing people to be their "authentic selves".

Natal women want to be their "authentic selves" too. They want to feel safe, protected where they need to be, able to compete in a sport where the playing field is level and not to have their identities reduced to the sum of their ovaries and it's functions. Trans women need to find their own spaces and their own identities; not demand that women move over, make space, shut up and accept that they will suffer losses of their own rights.

GrannyGravy13

GagaJo

Doodledog, you can't be that lacking in awareness. If anyone (certainly not me) had the time or the inclination to go back through the posts, do you really think it's the intersectional feminist posts that do the majority of rudeness and shouting down?

Yes

Well, just by sheer numbers, you'd be wrong.

The GC on here outnumber the IF by at least 6 or 7 to 1. And given that trisher is the only IF really contributing and is rarely here, I don't see how you work that one out.

Lies, lies and statistics maybe?

trisher

Isn't it funny how all the allegations of gaslighting DARVOing and every other kind of persecution you can imagine comes from the gender critical. It might be considered part of a pattern of perceived persecution. but actually it's probably just a way of trying to counter perfectly reasonable posts. If you can't question the content claim you are being persecuted. They'll probably say I'm doing something similar now. It's very hard to discuss anything under these terms. Of course some are free to throw abuse about whenever they like.

As soon as you start with 'some people' you lose the moral high ground.

Please look at GagaJo's response to my post and your reaction to it, and tell me how that doesn't fit the classic DARVO strategy?

trisher

GG13 It's been in all the papers www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/mar/22/i-will-not-be-held-prisoner-the-trans-women-turned-back-at-ukraines-borders
I didn't realise how Ukraine treated gay and transpeople. Rated 39th out of 49 isn't good. And no gay marriage.

Ukraine, along with a lot of Eastern Europe, has a very 'macho' (and anti-gay) culture. Remember that it was part of the Soviet Union until 1992.

Aspects of that culture can be attractive (everyone in the whole world must have a huge crush on Zelensky!), but it has its downsides. Whereas it is the culture of 'manly men' who are trained to use guns in school that has allowed them to fight off a powerful army for as long as they have, the residual homophobia and sexism will be difficult for those wanting to live a less 'traditional' lifestyle.

I'm surprised that transpeople have the rights that they do, to be honest - they have certificates of transition and so on. Nevertheless, when conscription starts, people's tolerance of those who avoid it evaporates overnight. Mothers, wives and sisters of those who have been forced to fight resent anyone whose menfolk are not fighting, and hidden disabilities or psychological reasons are not considered - it happened here with white feathers and 'Conchie' insults. It's horrible, but perhaps understandable?

Again, we are back to conflicting rights. If someone with chronic anxiety is forced to fight because they are male, what gives someone who 'feels like a woman' the right to refuse? I don't know the answer to that, as I have been fortunate never to have lived through an invasion of my homeland. I read about this and wondered how I would feel if my son had to fight and someone else's said he was a woman and was excused, though. I don't know the answer, and am grateful for that.

Yes, the breast-groping sounds grim (although it's nothing compared to the reports about the treatment of civilians coming out of Mariupol), but this is war. There is not time or equipment to test hormone levels, even if they were a reliable indicator of anything.

It's horrible - all of it.