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Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

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volver Tue 15-Mar-22 14:50:07

Now I might be asking for trouble but I’m looking for information.

On two threads active today about politics, we’ve had posts very quickly about gender politics. I’m a bit in the dark and I tend to stay off the gender politics threads as they tend to get heated. (Yes, this is me, really. wink)

So I’m looking for information on this issue and why people are so fired up about it. No judgement please, I am just trying to understand this.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 23-Mar-22 09:50:09

GrannyGravy13

There are lots of natal women who have remained in Ukraine to fight for their Country. Some have even taken their children to safe Countries and then returned.

The alternative to not allowing women and their dependents to leave (whether they be children or elderly/disabled relatives) would be 1,000’s of misplaced children and elderly without a family member to care for them financially, emotionally and physically.

Yes I think that is right. Those male or females with dependents - must be protected as the children are the next generation. So should be allowed to seek refugee status.

trisher Wed 23-Mar-22 09:48:02

Whitewavemark2

trisher

Whitewavemark2

GrannyGravy13

Unfortunately Whitewavemark2 where you have natal females fighting/frontline then rape and assault by the opposition becomes part of war.

It always has regardless. It is used as a weapon of war.

Women have always be subjected to this type horror in war time.

We can’t as females expect equality, but opt out of stuff we don’t like.

Just the same as those trundling along the Male/female spectrum.

But females aren't equal in Ukraine now they are permitted to leave the country.

That is a big statement, I’m sure that a Ukrainian female would disagree.

How can she disagree? Men can't leave the country, women can how is that equal?

People may or may not choose to fight

Subjecting anyone to intrusive and abusive searches for no real reason is always wrong.

trisher Wed 23-Mar-22 09:44:01

Doodledog

*Doodledog I apologise if I misread this statement Every case only goes one way, doesn't it? as meaning all children questioning their gender identity are pushed into transition. I'm pleased you realise some children simply look and dress differently to others and pass through phases just as they used to whereas other children suffer distress and pain because they have gender dysphoria.*
Of course I realise that, and have never said otherwise, but thank you for your apology. My concern is how far the lines between those states are blurred by politically motivated vested interests.

What we don't know is whether the children who were 'going through a phase' in the past would now be seen as 'dysphoric' and vice versa. Children now are taken a lot more seriously than before, and whereas in many ways that is a good thing, I do feel that there is a conversation to be had about how far we should allow them to make decisions that will affect the rest of their lives. I am not saying that they shouldn't be listened to, but that we need to listen to child psychologists about where adult responsibility for children's long-term well-being starts and ends.

Doodledog I don't know what politically motivated vested interests you are referring to. There may be a few transpeople who like new converts try to change everyone else, but I would imagine most are caring people. It is early days in open trans medication and like most medical matters it is probably not absolutely perfect yet,
But it is a fact that children denied access to good care and counselling will resort to ordering drugs on-line and that is much more dangerous.

GrannyGravy13 Wed 23-Mar-22 09:40:12

There are lots of natal women who have remained in Ukraine to fight for their Country. Some have even taken their children to safe Countries and then returned.

The alternative to not allowing women and their dependents to leave (whether they be children or elderly/disabled relatives) would be 1,000’s of misplaced children and elderly without a family member to care for them financially, emotionally and physically.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 23-Mar-22 09:39:48

GrannyGravy13

trisher I have read the article, Ukraine hasn’t got the best record on LGBTQ rights I agree.

Their record re LGBT Q rights have nothing to do with whether one is expected to fight for one’s country.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 23-Mar-22 09:38:44

trisher

Whitewavemark2

GrannyGravy13

Unfortunately Whitewavemark2 where you have natal females fighting/frontline then rape and assault by the opposition becomes part of war.

It always has regardless. It is used as a weapon of war.

Women have always be subjected to this type horror in war time.

We can’t as females expect equality, but opt out of stuff we don’t like.

Just the same as those trundling along the Male/female spectrum.

But females aren't equal in Ukraine now they are permitted to leave the country.

That is a big statement, I’m sure that a Ukrainian female would disagree.

GrannyGravy13 Wed 23-Mar-22 09:37:10

trisher I have read the article, Ukraine hasn’t got the best record on LGBTQ rights I agree.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 23-Mar-22 09:36:58

I am lucky enough to be a healthy (although overweight -lost 2lbs this week) 76 year old.

I see no reason why given the training I could not be given a gun to defend my country.

No reason for me to opt out.

trisher Wed 23-Mar-22 09:35:56

Whitewavemark2

GrannyGravy13

Unfortunately Whitewavemark2 where you have natal females fighting/frontline then rape and assault by the opposition becomes part of war.

It always has regardless. It is used as a weapon of war.

Women have always be subjected to this type horror in war time.

We can’t as females expect equality, but opt out of stuff we don’t like.

Just the same as those trundling along the Male/female spectrum.

But females aren't equal in Ukraine now they are permitted to leave the country.

trisher Wed 23-Mar-22 09:34:17

Isn't it funny how all the allegations of gaslighting DARVOing and every other kind of persecution you can imagine comes from the gender critical. It might be considered part of a pattern of perceived persecution. but actually it's probably just a way of trying to counter perfectly reasonable posts. If you can't question the content claim you are being persecuted. They'll probably say I'm doing something similar now. It's very hard to discuss anything under these terms. Of course some are free to throw abuse about whenever they like.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 23-Mar-22 09:32:07

GrannyGravy13

Unfortunately Whitewavemark2 where you have natal females fighting/frontline then rape and assault by the opposition becomes part of war.

It always has regardless. It is used as a weapon of war.

Women have always be subjected to this type horror in war time.

We can’t as females expect equality, but opt out of stuff we don’t like.

Just the same as those trundling along the Male/female spectrum.

Doodledog Wed 23-Mar-22 09:30:15

Doodledog I apologise if I misread this statement Every case only goes one way, doesn't it? as meaning all children questioning their gender identity are pushed into transition. I'm pleased you realise some children simply look and dress differently to others and pass through phases just as they used to whereas other children suffer distress and pain because they have gender dysphoria.
Of course I realise that, and have never said otherwise, but thank you for your apology. My concern is how far the lines between those states are blurred by politically motivated vested interests.

What we don't know is whether the children who were 'going through a phase' in the past would now be seen as 'dysphoric' and vice versa. Children now are taken a lot more seriously than before, and whereas in many ways that is a good thing, I do feel that there is a conversation to be had about how far we should allow them to make decisions that will affect the rest of their lives. I am not saying that they shouldn't be listened to, but that we need to listen to child psychologists about where adult responsibility for children's long-term well-being starts and ends.

Mollygo Wed 23-Mar-22 09:27:23

GrannyGravy13

Yes they are Whitewavemark2 they have all male genitalia until they have fully transitioned.

And even then, they are still male. Chopping bits off doesn’t change your gametes.
Trisher says, Did you read about the abuse the transwomen are being subjected to? How they are searched by men who fondle their breasts and make personal remarks about their bodies. Do you not realise that men who behave like that will do the same to any women.
Like GG13 I’m eagerly anticipating your links trisher.
However, even without links. I do realise that males who behave like that will do the same to any women.
So now you’ve accepted that trisher, you obviously realise that any ill-intentioned males or transwomen should not be allowed in women’s safe places because they will do that to any women.

trisher Wed 23-Mar-22 09:27:03

GG13 It's been in all the papers www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/mar/22/i-will-not-be-held-prisoner-the-trans-women-turned-back-at-ukraines-borders
I didn't realise how Ukraine treated gay and transpeople. Rated 39th out of 49 isn't good. And no gay marriage.

Chewbacca Wed 23-Mar-22 09:22:30

that is classic gaslighting

Oh Doodledog I hear you. I've been gaslit too; apparently I've deliberately misunderstood, I've mis remembered what's been said, I've taken things out of context, I've twisted what's been said etc. I've challenged it too and it's been denied and turned back on me that it's me that's gaslighting; classic DARVO. All mind games and tactics that are best ignored if you can; it's not you, it's them. flowers

GrannyGravy13 Wed 23-Mar-22 09:22:13

Unfortunately Whitewavemark2 where you have natal females fighting/frontline then rape and assault by the opposition becomes part of war.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 23-Mar-22 09:14:22

Regardless of where they are on the male/female spectrum.

Medical exemptions of course.

I’m talking about healthy human beings. No if or buts.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 23-Mar-22 09:12:59

Quite honestly I have been washing up and thinking about this.

And have come to the conclusion, that if our country was fighting for its life, every single individual without dependents should be expected to stay and fight.

GrannyGravy13 Wed 23-Mar-22 09:10:30

Yes they are Whitewavemark2 they have all male genitalia until they have fully transitioned.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 23-Mar-22 09:06:32

trisher

Doodledog I apologise if I misread this statement Every case only goes one way, doesn't it? as meaning all children questioning their gender identity are pushed into transition. I'm pleased you realise some children simply look and dress differently to others and pass through phases just as they used to whereas other children suffer distress and pain because they have gender dysphoria..

Whitewavemark2 Did you read about the abuse the transwomen are being subjected to? How they are searched by men who fondle their breasts and make personal remarks about their bodies. Do you not realise that men who behave like that will do the same to any women? It does take a war to bring out the true opinions of people and reveal how they really feel about things doesn't it?

You will have to help me out here. I understood that men self identifying as women were still biologically male?

Chewbacca Wed 23-Mar-22 09:06:13

Well, I suppose: Men self identifying as women have been told to stay and fight in Ukraine rather than join the biological women fleeing as refugees. answers this question on the list: Does anyone abuse self-id policies?

Quite agree with you whitewave; hard cheese indeed.

GrannyGravy13 Wed 23-Mar-22 09:05:57

Any links to what you have alleged trisher , thank you

trisher Wed 23-Mar-22 09:01:38

Doodledog I apologise if I misread this statement Every case only goes one way, doesn't it? as meaning all children questioning their gender identity are pushed into transition. I'm pleased you realise some children simply look and dress differently to others and pass through phases just as they used to whereas other children suffer distress and pain because they have gender dysphoria..

Whitewavemark2 Did you read about the abuse the transwomen are being subjected to? How they are searched by men who fondle their breasts and make personal remarks about their bodies. Do you not realise that men who behave like that will do the same to any women? It does take a war to bring out the true opinions of people and reveal how they really feel about things doesn't it?

GrannyGravy13 Wed 23-Mar-22 08:55:58

Whitewavemark2

Interesting read this morning.

Men self identifying as women have been told to stay and fight in Ukraine rather than join the biological women fleeing as refugees.

Apparently they aren’t happy.

Hard cheese I say.

I hadn’t seen that Whitewavemark2 I wonder what the situation is with transmen or women self ID’ing as men?

Whitewavemark2 Wed 23-Mar-22 08:44:59

Interesting read this morning.

Men self identifying as women have been told to stay and fight in Ukraine rather than join the biological women fleeing as refugees.

Apparently they aren’t happy.

Hard cheese I say.