Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

I wonder the same JaneJudge makes you think doesn't it?

if a man got into my daughter's care home and said he was woman and raped her, I would be certifiable

what on earth is wrong with 'some' of you ?

VS
What they are not seeing is that, that may work on like minded others who think shutting down even moderate voices is the only way to "win"

Exactly, except that that applies to your posts not the posters you are criticising.
You post the same thing, trying to shut down, cancel or even delete moderate posters who see the increasing dominance of males in any area being supported by females as worrying-not a matter of winning.
In this case, to do with males competing in female sport. There may be a lot wrong with female sport, but that doesn’t mean one issue should not be addressed until everything is sorted.
So now I’m asking you VS as well as trisher, will you stand up and say that allowing males to compete in female sport is wrong and unfair.
In a room full of female athletes, weightlifters and swimmers who have trained long and hard, but lost out to a man competing as a woman, would you remain seated.
On GN where we are all incognito:

Allowing males to compete in female sport is wrong and unfair.

There need be only a yes or no answer.
It’s not dependent on whether or not he has taken hormone suppressants, or whether he is intact, or whether he has lost in male competitions and is desperate for a medal, or whether everyone has agreed to call him ‘she’. Simply whether his being male gives him an unfair advantage that all the training in the world won’t make the competition fair.

Allowing males to compete in female sport is wrong and unfair.

Yes-you believe it’s wrong and unfair.
No -you believe it’s right and fair

No answer-you can’t bring yourself to say one way or the other. In which case . . .

Thanks Doodledog. There’s also the issue of the informed choice of others

I think you are missing some of the point, grandtante. The whole concept of 'gender' is based around the idea that some things are suitable for women and girls, and others for boys and men. That is what many women object to. If someone 'identifies' as the opposite gender, all they are doing is reinforcing the notion that there are things that are suitable for them to do and others that are off limits - whether that is clothing, hobbies, occupations or whatever. For feminists who have been fighting against these constraints all their lives, this is a huge step backwards.

Sexuality has nothing to do with this either, or at least not on the straight or LGB spectrum. Some transwomen identify as lesbians, as they are sexually attracted to women (ie they are heterosexual males). Most, if not all of these are AGF (autogynephiles) who are sexually excited at the thought of being women, and they can get aggressive if women refuse to have sex with them, as refusal to believe that they are female 'bursts their bubble'.

Quite apart from the fact that women's spaces are being lost, with the attendant dangers we have seen in the recent hospital rape, men insisting that they are women means that they are more likely to win at sport, and if they are counted as female in statistics even fewer things are likely to accommodate women, or to pay attention to their needs.

It's really not just a matter of respecting someone's informed choice.

grandtante same

volver

Well as a scientist I certainly knew about the difference between sex and gender, but I appreciate people taking time to explain it.

But "science" doesn't explain why people are so angry about some of this and what a big deal it is for them. So I was thinking this thread was going somewhere, especially with what VioletSky was writing. I hope we get more thoughtful posts like that, and less of the rudeness. Yes, I'm looking at you Riverwalk

Let's see.

I'm thinking on starting a thread on Dawkins

I think "some " people, not all of us, are angry about this because it makes them feel insecure.

Personally, I have always been able to accept that some small children wanted to play with toys that in our childhood were considered more suitable for the opposite sex than to their own, and that some adults' sexual preference is for their own sex rather than the opposite.

The 1970s were enjoyable to us who were twenty or so then, just because it no longer was a criminal offence for consenting adults to have sex with a same-sex parter, and kindergarten teachers stopped telling little girls they shouldn't play with train sets, or little boys not to play with dolls.

As far as I am concerned if someone conventionally described as male because physically the possessor of penis and testicles wishes to dress as a woman, and be addressed as one, or a person physically female (born with a uterus, ovaries etc.) wishes to dress as a man and be addressed as such, that is and should be their business.

The same applies to those who by surgical means change their outward appearence to match the gender they feel they are, and those who remain physically the sex they were born, but have a sexual preference for those who physically resemble them, and those who are able to fall in love with both men and women.

In most walks of life none of all this should be a concern.

However, I can see that putting a rapist in a women's prison because he defines himself as a woman is problematical, if for no other reason on logical grounds - surely if you define yourself as female you don't go around raping women, even if physically capable of the crime?

In competative sport the issue of superior strength arises, and on the battlefield any woman who defines herself as a man, but physically is a woman runs as great a risk of rape if captured by the enemy as any other female soldier does.

However, none of this should cause anger. It should and must be possible to repect an adult's informed choice whether we agree with it or not in what is basically a private matter.

I agree Doodledog there's ever more sunlight being generated by the sports issues. Mollygo it would be nice if just for once people were prepared to consider a single aspect of the problems in sport.
One thing that puzzles me is why none of the top rated male athletes have transitioned while competing. I mean why should people like Usain Bolt be immune from gender identity matters? It certainly appears that gender identity issues requiring transition to become a transwoman happen to mediocre athletes.

Mollygo

Trisher, So will you stand up and say that allowing males to compete in female sport is wrong and unfair? Not becoming obsessed with one thing doesn’t mean you can’t answer that. It doesn’t need to be conflated with other other issues that are wrong in female sport. It’s an issue on its own. I suspect I’ll get another convoluted non-answer but the discussion is opening many more people’s eyes to the wrongdoing that is going on now and how it is being directed by men as I think you have mentioned, but sadly now, supported by women afraid to say that allowing males to compete in female sports is wrong.

The fact that these issues are being highlighted by sport means that more and more people will become aware of them, Molly, and I think that the pendulum will start to swing. Women are sick of being gaslighted into 'being kind', and when they see the blatant unfairness of a large strong man winning the 'women's' swimming it will tip the balance.

And refuse to accept explanations that should say

trisher if people have to deliberately misinterpret your points and tefur to accept explanations or assign thinking to you that's not there, in order to win an argument... Something that has happened a lot more than usual lately... What they are not seeing is that, that may work on like minded others who think shutting down even moderate voices is the only way to "win". Where it won't work, is on the average objective reader. They're just sabotaging their own arguments

Something to think about.

In Holyrood Shona Robison MSP said “There is no evidence that predatory and abusive men have ever had to pretend to be anything else to carry out abusive and predatory behaviour”.

On the anniversary of Sarah Everard’s death, killed by a man who pretended to be an on duty police officer in order to pretend to arrest her in order to actually kidnap her so he could eventually kill her, my Cabinet Secretary made a tactless and factually incorrect statement. In doing so, she made herself look like an absolute balloon, and a new wave of women realised that #bekind is not for the likes of them.

thecritic.co.uk/women-wont-wheesht/

Trisher, So will you stand up and say that allowing males to compete in female sport is wrong and unfair? Not becoming obsessed with one thing doesn’t mean you can’t answer that. It doesn’t need to be conflated with other other issues that are wrong in female sport. It’s an issue on its own. I suspect I’ll get another convoluted non-answer but the discussion is opening many more people’s eyes to the wrongdoing that is going on now and how it is being directed by men as I think you have mentioned, but sadly now, supported by women afraid to say that allowing males to compete in female sports is wrong.

I've just put this on the other thread but, as the topic here has turned to women's sports, I'll ask here too:

The attached photo is of 3 women cyclists; all in the same race, same age group and therefore should be a level playing field. One of them is far taller, heavier and more muscular than the others. One of them was born male but says that they identify as a woman. Which one won?

Mollygo

No (why do people insist on filtering my views and re presenting them wrongly?) I’m not at all.
trisher
is saying that women's sport has been and still is run by men who show absolutely no respect for women. I’m agreeing!
And by allowing or supporting transwomen competing in female sports categories, you are evidently promulgating the continuation of male dominance.

I haven't allowed or supported any such thing Mollygo- I do wonder if mansplaining is the term for a man telling a women how things work what's the term for a woman who keeps telling another woman what she thinks?
I have simply said women's sport is a complete mess and not become obsessed with one thing.

No (why do people insist on filtering my views and re presenting them wrongly?) I’m not at all.
trisher
is saying that women's sport has been and still is run by men who show absolutely no respect for women. I’m agreeing!
And by allowing or supporting transwomen competing in female sports categories, you are evidently promulgating the continuation of male dominance.

Mollygo

Trisher
And although I may feel sorry for women losing to transmen I'm sure banning them won't really improve things for women. That’s appalling.
You’re basically saying that because unacceptable and unfair treatment happened to CS and others that means that it’s OK women should still put up with unfair treatments because this time the unfairness is caused by males.
Is this an example of intersectional feminism?

No (why do people insist on filtering my views and re presenting them wrongly?)
I am saying that women's sport has been and still is run by men who show absolutely no respect for women and particularly black women and that banning transwomen will do nothing to stop that. The trans lobby seem concerned with girls in America but the problem actually is much more deeply rooted. The sexism won't go away even if transwomen are banned. It has been going for a long time. I would have imagined any feminist would be concerned for the abuse those women have experienced. This is interesting about the ethics of insisting on the medical intervention www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01606-8

Trisher
And although I may feel sorry for women losing to transmen I'm sure banning them won't really improve things for women. That’s appalling.
You’re basically saying that because unacceptable and unfair treatment happened to CS and others that means that it’s OK women should still put up with unfair treatments because this time the unfairness is caused by males.
Is this an example of intersectional feminism?

Well it would improve things for every single woman who lost to a man. And those who lose scholarships because of it.

FarNorth

trisher
If what you say about Caster Semenya is true, then I would support CS being in female sports.
Lia/Will Thomas is not in that category, he has been a male all along.

'Which is worse' isn't relevant. The two situations are separate and are, I would think, equally distressing for the women who lose out.

Can you not imagine competitions to come where women and girls have no chance at all of winning because there are so many trans competitors?
A sample of that was seen with Andrea Yearwood and Terry Miller in USA college sports.

FarNorth I just think women's sport has been a complete mess for far too long and even if you banned every transwoman the problems would remain. The history is horrendous, intimate examinations, intrusive testing it's all gone on. Black and Asian woman have suffered the most with one committing suicide when she was ruled a man although she had lived all her life as a woman. And although I may feel sorry for women losing to transmen I'm sure banning them won't really improve things for women.

trisher
If what you say about Caster Semenya is true, then I would support CS being in female sports.
Lia/Will Thomas is not in that category, he has been a male all along.

'Which is worse' isn't relevant. The two situations are separate and are, I would think, equally distressing for the women who lose out.

Can you not imagine competitions to come where women and girls have no chance at all of winning because there are so many trans competitors?
A sample of that was seen with Andrea Yearwood and Terry Miller in USA college sports.

FarNorth

From trisher The question I asked remains unanswered which is worse to compete and lose to a transwoman or to be banned from competing because of a function of your woman's body

What does your question mean? Who are you talking about?
I have no problem with someone who is female, and has a natural advantage of some kind, being in female sports.
I do have a problem with someone who is male, even if they have taken medication to reduce their advantage, being in female sports.
I don't know if that is what your question was about.

Caister Semenya and two other black African women athletes are banned from competing because their bodies produce naturally high levels of testosterone. They are required to medicate before they can compete again. CS has tried the medication and reported significant side effects.
So these women who have lived as women all their lives are banned from competing. Now I would have imagined that any woman would support them and insist that medicating someone was not acceptable but they don't.
It seems to me that protesting about a single transwomen who has taken medication to change her body but not protesting about a woman who is being forced to medicate herself shows that the issue isn't really women, becase why wouldn't you support the woman? But only really transwomen. Which as far as women's sport goes is pretty narrow minded. It has dreadful and long history of being abusive to women.

From trisher The question I asked remains unanswered which is worse to compete and lose to a transwoman or to be banned from competing because of a function of your woman's body

What does your question mean? Who are you talking about?
I have no problem with someone who is female, and has a natural advantage of some kind, being in female sports.
I do have a problem with someone who is male, even if they have taken medication to reduce their advantage, being in female sports.
I don't know if that is what your question was about.

Crikey yes Dickens. Its the wild west out there.