Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

GagaJo

Hahaha trisher. Same here. No wonder none of the frogs turned into princes (or princesses)!

We obviously got the wrong end of the stick Gagajo (or something). It's a bit late now!

But even if I was looking for a sexual partner there are people who you could go on a date with, get on really well with but in no way see them as a sexual partner. It happens all the time on First Dates.

Hahaha trisher. Same here. No wonder none of the frogs turned into princes (or princesses)!

trisher

Rosie51

trisher

I don't think Nancy Kelly mentioned having sex with anyone, simply dating them. She also mentions disabled and other groups. She didn't say people had to date anyone just that if you ruled out a whole group of people you might want to look at your bias. If it is OK to say you'd never date a transwoman would it be OK to say you'd never date a woman with cerebral palsy?

But trisher if you are a lesbian you are sexually aroused by the female body not the male one. A transwoman does not have a female body. Would you say a lesbian should be open to dating a man? If she doesn't find men attractive and says she could never date one is she prejudiced?

Surely people date as a prelude to possible sex. Even kissing and fondling is sex and most dating couples indulge at least in kissing.

I wish someone had told me this I thought a date was just going somewhere with someone and having (or not having) a nice time. No one told me I had to put out afterwards! (Is this why I'm single???)

Of course dates can be just friends going out with someone and having a nice time, but let's not pretend that was what Nancy was referring to. She was definitely referring to dating potential sexual partners, the statement was made in reply to lesbians objecting to being pressured to dating and having sex with transwomen. I'm sure lesbians could happily be friends with transwomen and go out on 'dates' with them. I don't tend to use the word date when I'm going out with friends or family. My adult children refer to 'date night' as being without kids enjoying some romantic time together.

Rosie51

trisher

I don't think Nancy Kelly mentioned having sex with anyone, simply dating them. She also mentions disabled and other groups. She didn't say people had to date anyone just that if you ruled out a whole group of people you might want to look at your bias. If it is OK to say you'd never date a transwoman would it be OK to say you'd never date a woman with cerebral palsy?

But trisher if you are a lesbian you are sexually aroused by the female body not the male one. A transwoman does not have a female body. Would you say a lesbian should be open to dating a man? If she doesn't find men attractive and says she could never date one is she prejudiced?

Surely people date as a prelude to possible sex. Even kissing and fondling is sex and most dating couples indulge at least in kissing.

I wish someone had told me this I thought a date was just going somewhere with someone and having (or not having) a nice time. No one told me I had to put out afterwards! (Is this why I'm single???)

trisher

I don't think Nancy Kelly mentioned having sex with anyone, simply dating them. She also mentions disabled and other groups. She didn't say people had to date anyone just that if you ruled out a whole group of people you might want to look at your bias. If it is OK to say you'd never date a transwoman would it be OK to say you'd never date a woman with cerebral palsy?

But trisher if you are a lesbian you are sexually aroused by the female body not the male one. A transwoman does not have a female body. Would you say a lesbian should be open to dating a man? If she doesn't find men attractive and says she could never date one is she prejudiced?

Surely people date as a prelude to possible sex. Even kissing and fondling is sex and most dating couples indulge at least in kissing.

If someone wouldn't date an overweight person, I wouldn't question that that is the truth. I would question if they were saying that to an overweight person..

That's the difference.

OK so you (blanket statement) would not ever date a trans person? Was it necessary to say it when you could just not do it?

It's quite a big difference if you think about it

VioletSky

Nancy Kelly seems quite reasonable there but maybe I am reading it differently.

To my mind comparing not wanting to date transwomen because they're male to being racist is quite unfounded. They are not equivalent.

I don't believe anyone's attractions are influenced by how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions. . If this was true surely there would have been hardly any homosexuals in the past when society was so hostile to the point of making male homosexuality illegal? Attraction, like sexual orientation is something innate.

I don't think Nancy Kelly mentioned having sex with anyone, simply dating them. She also mentions disabled and other groups. She didn't say people had to date anyone just that if you ruled out a whole group of people you might want to look at your bias. If it is OK to say you'd never date a transwoman would it be OK to say you'd never date a woman with cerebral palsy?

Rosie51

This is a statement made by Nancy Kelly CEO of Stonewall, in response to the pressure some lesbians have encountered over their reluctance to date transwomen who identify as lesbians. She knows that transwomen typically retain their penis.

Thanks for that information.

Acknowledging that we're all subject I guess to societal pressures and prejudices, it still doesn't alter the fact that if you don't find someone attractive, then you're not going to want to have sex with them... however much you might examine your conscience.

I hate the shaming of the overweight, but I have never been attracted to an overweight man, physically. No matter how much I might realise that it's 'wrong' or hypocritical... if it's not there, it's not there. Or - maybe - I just never met the right overweight man. I don't know, I really don't.

This is such a minefield, I might be better keeping out of it.

3nanny6

Luckygirl13 and Dee1012, Thank-you for sharing your information on your GC and because they have chosen to live differently than "society dictates" on appearance clothing for each particular sex.

Luckygirl13 you may not see my post but if you do I hope you do not mind me asking if your dearly loved GC showed any outwardly traits to them being uncomfortable when younger to conforming to the gender they were born as?
I am just trying to have some understanding when a child may have feelings like that and what age it could show in certain ways. Perhaps even Dee1012 could even answer that.

I do hope your DGC are now happy to live as they want to I suppose the key word to how you have grown to get used to it is Acceptance.

3nanny6

I'll try to articulate what my relative has shared with me.. as a child outwardly everything was 'normal'. Male friends, played what was at that time - male only sports, played with stereotypical male orientated toys and games, short neatly cut hair, and the clothing boys wore. However approaching early puberty they described a massive internal confusion over who they were (although they described earlier feelings of a sense of constant discomfort / not feeling right) and the self-shame over not being normal. For a long time they truly believed that they were, in some way mentally damaged and all it did was ensure that it was kept it shut up inside with no real outlet or understanding of how to express those feelings.
If I reflect on how I and other family member's viewed the behaviour, I think we saw a very gentle and sensitive child who appeared to be on a level of what can only be called depression in teenage years.
Some members of our broader family are not accepting or show any level of understanding...I'm just thankful that I was told to try and have an open mind and to accept anyone for being who they are. That’s the key you see, for me it’s the person who you accept in life and nothing else about them matters.

Nancy Kelly seems quite reasonable there but maybe I am reading it differently.

volver

I do feel I've been living under a rock for the last few years.

... I think I have been living under a rock. Partly because I'm the carer of my disabled partner and, being partly disabled myself, I operate in another world... which also has it challenges.

I only know one trans woman - we both share an interest and run a Facebook group together. The only topics we discuss privately are cooking, politics, and our various (horrible) hospital experiences. I just take her at the 'face-value' I know she wants. There's a huge disparity in our age - she's early 20s, I'm 80 - but our passion for the same music appears to make that somewhat irrelevant - especially as we have the same political outlook. And that's the limit of my experience of the transgender world.

So I'm really a bit reluctant to say much, because I know and understand so little. However, sometimes I read something that really does make me blink...

This is a statement made by Nancy Kelly CEO of Stonewall, in response to the pressure some lesbians have encountered over their reluctance to date transwomen who identify as lesbians. She knows that transwomen typically retain their penis.

Dickens a few bonkers people have said things like that. Well apparently as I have not personally come across that idea.

Most trans people and their allies don't give them a voice, a platform or any credibility because that's nonsense. Honestly.

Goes against all principles of feminism and equality to dictate that sort of thing to people

I know quite a few lesbians. I honestly can't say the conversation has ever covered their disgust at being expected to have sex with a transwoman with a penis. It has included having to get away from creepy heterosexual men who think lesbianism is a turn on and arranged specifically for their titillation, or who can't understand that it means no men, ever, and that 'turning' someone isn't a thing.

I do feel I've been living under a rock for the last few years.

"will speak for myself here, but others have said similar - I am nothing but supportive of transwomen who just get on with life (regardless of how they dress). It is when TRAs start insisting that women are called 'bleeders', 'breeders' or 'people with cervixes' etc, and that lesbians are transphobic when they don't want to have sex with men in dresses and beards who say they are women and so on (see threads passim) that we get exercised."

and that lesbians are transphobic when they don't want to have sex with men in dresses and beards who say they are women

... I'm slightly stunned at this. Admittedly, I know little about these things, but - is this actually true? Are lesbians really being accused of transphobia when they don't want sex with men in dresses and beards?

I thought one's choice of sexual partner was entirely their own, personal choice to make, regardless of gender identity. It almost reads like lesbians should conform to a pre-determined set of rules - which lay out the choices they are obliged to make... ??? This cannot be true, surely? I mean, putting it very simplistically - what if you find stubbly beards a big turn off?

But galaxy,

The main difference between GC feminists and intersectional feminists in direct relation to trans issues seems to be

GC feminists care about issues trans people face that make them "not trans" and harmed by trans existence

Whereas intersectional feminists care about all the issues and do want to find solutions to all the issues

Can you see how that focus is a problem?

Open it up a little further, when the GC focus is mainly trans issues over the many many issues women accross the globe are facing that are a bit more serious than advertising slogans...

Can you see how that focus is a problem?

Trans and their allies get blamed for this when actually, it's not us stuck in a vortex looking for things to get offended about on one issue

It isn't so much how other groups were treated, it's more the process society has to go through to get to acceptance.

Stage one - it's unnatural!
Stage two - they can do what they want, just don't force it on others
Stage three - political support
Stage four - stops being topical issue of the time, everyone moves on

You cant change sex. Women have a right to consent and boundaries. There are major concerns about the medical care that transpeople receive, this has been highlighted again and again by gender critical feminists . GC feminists talk about the isues relating to transmen all the time. Oh and the 'its just the same as how gay people were treated gets a bit complicated when it is a large section of the gay community, especially lesbians who are raising these concerns. Have a quick look at stonewalls twitter feed on this issue and see what many gay people are saying.

Well not "easy" easy but in comparison to some it is, or at least acheivble

I think if a family member comes out as trans, if you are a genuine person who loves unconditionally, acceptance is easy

Luckygirl13 and Dee1012, Thank-you for sharing your information on your GC and because they have chosen to live differently than "society dictates" on appearance clothing for each particular sex.

Luckygirl13 you may not see my post but if you do I hope you do not mind me asking if your dearly loved GC showed any outwardly traits to them being uncomfortable when younger to conforming to the gender they were born as?
I am just trying to have some understanding when a child may have feelings like that and what age it could show in certain ways. Perhaps even Dee1012 could even answer that.

I do hope your DGC are now happy to live as they want to I suppose the key word to how you have grown to get used to it is Acceptance.

Lucky girl, the trouble is when some of these changes become policy or even enshrined in law.

I understand completely that you are protective of your grandchild - I would be the same. My own perspective, for what that’s worth, is that transpeople would face far less discrimination and/or fear if they asked for acceptance as transpeople rather than insisting that they have changed sex.