'Ludicrous debates about language, statues and pronouns' - do you agree with Liz Truss?

growstuff that response was to a post you made to someone else and it was removed from the thread for breaking guidelines, as were all the responses to it. So obviously I cannot comment further. But yours was the post removed because it was considered offensive.

M0nica

growstuff How do you what she wanted us to believe? Did she tell you?

I would have agreed with the words written down, even if Jeremy Corbyn had said them. Who said them is immaterial, it is the words I agree with. Someone voiced words that said what I think.

One of the joys of being politically essentially independent is that I do not wear blinkers and assume everything anyone in a party I do not support says is bad and everything someone in a a party I do support says is right. I agree when some one says something I agree with and disagree with them the next day if they say something I disagree with.

And, according to you, from a post a few days ago, you know exactly what kind of person I am! I wonder how you know that. Maybe get a good mirror!

M0nica

growstuff How do you what she wanted us to believe? Did she tell you?

I would have agreed with the words written down, even if Jeremy Corbyn had said them. Who said them is immaterial, it is the words I agree with. Someone voiced words that said what I think.

One of the joys of being politically essentially independent is that I do not wear blinkers and assume everything anyone in a party I do not support says is bad and everything someone in a a party I do support says is right. I agree when some one says something I agree with and disagree with them the next day if they say something I disagree with.

No, she didn't say very much at all. You're filling in the gaps, which is exactly what was intended. Look at the history of propaganda.

M0nica

growstuff How do you what she wanted us to believe? Did she tell you?

I would have agreed with the words written down, even if Jeremy Corbyn had said them. Who said them is immaterial, it is the words I agree with. Someone voiced words that said what I think.

One of the joys of being politically essentially independent is that I do not wear blinkers and assume everything anyone in a party I do not support says is bad and everything someone in a a party I do support says is right. I agree when some one says something I agree with and disagree with them the next day if they say something I disagree with.

It's not rocket science to put it in context.

Right, I’ve had a look at what Liz Truss said and it’s a curate’s egg as far as I’m concerned.

Identity politics has become a quagmire. It started with good intentions, but you cannot please everyone all the time. Your rights should not come at the expense of somebody else’s.

I’m sure the Establishment would love to brush our colonial past under the carpet. I’m sure the Royal Family would not like people to know how much of their wealth was built on the slave trade. I, however, believe these things should be out in the open. The trade is documented, records exist, such as this charter in the British Library.

www.bl.uk/collection-items/charter-granted-to-the-company-of-royal-adventurers-of-england-relating-to-trade-in-africa-1663

growstuff How do you what she wanted us to believe? Did she tell you?

I would have agreed with the words written down, even if Jeremy Corbyn had said them. Who said them is immaterial, it is the words I agree with. Someone voiced words that said what I think.

One of the joys of being politically essentially independent is that I do not wear blinkers and assume everything anyone in a party I do not support says is bad and everything someone in a a party I do support says is right. I agree when some one says something I agree with and disagree with them the next day if they say something I disagree with.

Ironically, the people attempting to shut down free speech are the ones accusing others of being "woke".

This is a video of what Truss actually said:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc7HRrMoqEs

It's simplistic (but very clever) in the extreme.

According to her, discussing "pronouns" and questioning statues are the opposite of feeling pride in the values of the UK. They're not! The ability to discuss them is the essence of British values and we should feel some pride they still exist.

The "war on woke" has been a theme running through other senior politicians' speech in recent days. It's obviously top of the policy makers' agenda. The politicians themselves don't have to say much because they know that it will give certain sectors of the public and the media an opportunity to vent their frustration that "they can't say what they want in case they are accused of not being PC".

I agree with MOnica’s post at 13.31. Despite that, I fear this simplistic rhetoric by Truss will appeal to ‘ordinary’ folks who aren’t particularly political.

It’s the obvious isn’t it. We need to know and understand our history in order to integrate into our present. Berlin is a wonderful, cosmopolitan city. The shameful history of WW2 is marked in so many ways, including public art. It is home to the best museum of Jewish history I’ve visited. The dark days of the divided city before the wall fell, also there to be seen and understood in the history that makes the vibrant city what it is

My town is a firmer cotton town, king cotton it’s said to have been. We make little of our industrial heritage. The obvious links to slavery, the strike by cotton workers in support of the end of slavery. The visit by Gandhi during the fight for independence. Nor why in the 1950’s our largely Pakistani Muslim community was established.

We need to teach our history, in all its horror and glory.

GillT57

growstuff

Galaxy

If theres a real debate to be had about those subjects, I bloody hope Labour dont engage in it, I would like them to win the next election.

I'm with you on that. "Culture wars" are a real distraction from the needs of the country and most of its people. I have my own opinions, but I rarely engage in discussion because they're not my top priority.

I agree, because we can be sure that the Tory newspapers will stir it up, lots of headlines about 'woke' culture, anything to distract from the reality of life for most people. It is hard to get worked up about personal pronouns when you can't put the heating on.

The whole cultural wars "woke" agenda has been about distracting from traditional political concerns such as equality of wealth and power. The Conservatives have always known that there is deeply ingrained "conservative" (with a small "c") thinking in traditional Labour voters, particularly amongst the elderly, who are the ones who tend to vote. There's a video somewhere of Dominic Cummings' making a speech saying exactly that. The "war on woke" was manufactured for a reason and, unfortunately, some Labour voters (on both sides of the fence) fell for it.

PS. My last post was addressed to MOnica.

You agree with what you thought she meant, which is precisely what her speech writers hoped you would. They're not stupid.

growstuff

Galaxy

If theres a real debate to be had about those subjects, I bloody hope Labour dont engage in it, I would like them to win the next election.

I'm with you on that. "Culture wars" are a real distraction from the needs of the country and most of its people. I have my own opinions, but I rarely engage in discussion because they're not my top priority.

I agree, because we can be sure that the Tory newspapers will stir it up, lots of headlines about 'woke' culture, anything to distract from the reality of life for most people. It is hard to get worked up about personal pronouns when you can't put the heating on.

Never thought I would say it, but i agree with her.

i doubt there is a nation in the world that can look back at its history and not be deeply ashamed of actions it has supported, caused or ignored that have led to the deaths of thousands or millions and brought misery on many more.

I also think the modern habit of judging those who lived in different times when social condtions were very different and standards were different, by modern standards ludicrous.

I often wonder what we are doing now that everybody agrees is the right and proper moral way of behaving, which will be excoriated and looked at in horror in another 100 years time. When someone we now respect and admire for their compassion, courage and honesty, will be dragged down into the gutter and be despised for all the wrong they did in their life through the vile causes they supported.

Think it cannot happen? Cnsider the case of Winston Churchill.

It's rather meaningless, isn't it?
Does she mean that statues should go or stay, or that people should be able to criticise historical figures or not? Are sex and gender to be assumed to be the same? What about safe spaces for women, and is women's sport going to allow men to enter and take the medals?

It's as clear as mud. Either because The Standard has badly reported or edited it or because LT is babbling incoherently. I'd need more in depth detail before stating my support or not.

Devorgilla

I read that Boris is embarking on a two year general election campaign. All these comments smack to me of distraction politics. They want us to feel we have got it wrong by wanting certain issues to be addressed on the domestic front. It suits them to 'gaslight' us into thinking we are the weirdos for not discussing constantly the foreign crisis in Ukraine. They want us to be afraid to raise these issues for fear of being ridiculed. Well, I want to know about partygate and how many jobs my MP has in addition to MP and many other 'trivial' matters. I want to bother 'my pretty little head' with them if only because I know it doesn't suit them to have them raised.

Me too. Not to mention the huge waste of resources on Track and Trace, contracts for buddies, proroguing of Parliament etc

Liz Truss obviously hopes that the appalling Russian attack on Ukraine will make the British people forget about all the good reasons we have for questioning our corrupt and incompetent Tory government.

I read that Boris is embarking on a two year general election campaign. All these comments smack to me of distraction politics. They want us to feel we have got it wrong by wanting certain issues to be addressed on the domestic front. It suits them to 'gaslight' us into thinking we are the weirdos for not discussing constantly the foreign crisis in Ukraine. They want us to be afraid to raise these issues for fear of being ridiculed. Well, I want to know about partygate and how many jobs my MP has in addition to MP and many other 'trivial' matters. I want to bother 'my pretty little head' with them if only because I know it doesn't suit them to have them raised.

I agree growstuff the labour party need to understand that the priorities on Twitter are not the priorities for the people who most need a labour government.

foxie IMO there are real equality issues in the UK. What appears to be happening is that Truss and her sidekick Badenoch cite people with quite extreme (and sometimes fringe) views to undermine real issues. They imply that these views are the "norm", but I don't think that's true.

Galaxy

If theres a real debate to be had about those subjects, I bloody hope Labour dont engage in it, I would like them to win the next election.

I'm with you on that. "Culture wars" are a real distraction from the needs of the country and most of its people. I have my own opinions, but I rarely engage in discussion because they're not my top priority.

Well I don't know if I agree with Ms Truss, don't usually! However, IMO equality needs to be tempered with the understanding that the world changes constantly but it takes some of us longer to catch up with the changes and are all the changes "right"?
My late MIL lived in Washington during the 60's, saw a good deal of how badly some people were treated because of their colour and was absolutely appalled but confessed she worried constantly about using the "wrong" words these days so never talked about what she had witnessed. Seems rather sad to me! She had correct sentiments but couldn't keep up with the "correct" language.
I am absolutely against tearing down statues of people who made their money via slavery. FGS let's use these monuments to teach people about our history but also add to them so we learn about herstory as well. My great grandfather aged 72 walked from Tipton to Manchester with his 10 year old grandson to help build the Manchester Ship Canal. He may have been "free", he was "free to starve" but he also helped to build the wealth of our nation and everyone in the UK to some extent benefits regardless of religion or colour.
I hate seeing people who raise objections eg Kathleen Stock, JK Rowling bullied. I think we are better than this but I worry that debate is being closed down by a minority of people with strong views. fwiw, I am female, don't have a penis, don't have a cervix or a womb, have a slight moustache and have no problems if anyone wants to transgender but I don't want them competing in sports at a high level or sleeping next to me in a female ward or being imprisoned in a cell with another woman unless they have completed their transition.

Agree with growstuff

Bit inception, trying to distract us by saying we are distracted.

If theres a real debate to be had about those subjects, I bloody hope Labour dont engage in it, I would like them to win the next election.

It's rather meaningless, isn't it?

Does she mean that statues should go or stay, or that people should be able to criticise historical figures or not? Are sex and gender to be assumed to be the same? What about safe spaces for women, and is women's sport going to allow men to enter and take the medals?

I'd need answers to those questions (which won't happen without debate) before agreeing or disagreeing with her point of view. TBH, given that it is endorsed by Jacob Reese Mogg, I'm inclined to think I know which way the wind's going to be blowing, though.