Deliberate and orchestrated silencing of trans rights supporters on GN

Galaxy

Women have been rejecting gender roles for decades.

That's intresting Galaxy but is it true? One of the gender roles is that women take care of children. The number of men helping care for children has increased but it is still the exception. Now you could argue that men impose this on women and they have no choice. But there is evidence that very well qualified women choose to adapt or change their own career path in order to accommodate child care. Now this could be for a number of reasons but it certainly isn't "rejecting gender roles". I would say that women's roles have been changing and adapting (sometimes because it suited the events of the times) but not that women have as a whole rejected them. I would acknowledge that there are some women who have rejected the gender roles of their time but they are generally not the norm.

If women would not use the service if a male was present, make it so that women don’t have to discover a man is present in the toilet, the hospital ward, the changing room etc making the service unusable. The fact that that rule needs to be made because of a small % of tw is not women’s fault. Perhaps if those supporting ALL tw made it clear they did NOT support those ill-intentioned TW (easy) and instead supported arrangements to protect females from the ill-intentioned tw, there would be some progress.

Well said, Molly. If this came to pass, so much of the disagreement would dissipate. As usual, however, it is women who are expected to do the legwork when it comes to accommodating male interests, and many of us have just had enough. I think that a lot of women might possibly let things pass for themselves, but when they think about the impact on their daughters and granddaughters they come out fighting. Maternal instinct is a female trait that should never be underestimated ?

Women have been rejecting gender roles for decades.

trisher

Whitewavemark2

And the term gender neutral - does that mean that the role an individual conforms to neither the accepted gender roles.

That is interesting how do they behave differently from a man or woman?

It means the individual refuses to be identified as either gender. They use a genderless name, use the pronun "they" and dress as they like. If you watched Pottery Throwdown AJ was gender neutral. Took me a bit to pick it up and when their mother called them "they" I was confused for a bit

Oh I see. A new social construct.

It will be interested to see what happens to that construct after a number of years have passed and whether it stands the test of time.

What is interesting in that idea is how that person behaves, as there is no societal model for that role as far as. I am award. Except perhaps a Hindu god - they are always so interesting I think.

I assume that they do not reject their biological sex?

Trisher says,
Firstly I accept totally that there are places and occasions when transwomen may not be welcome and the law actually covers this saying even if they have a GRC they can be excluded if women would not use the service if they were present.
Next step.

They can be excluded if women wouldn’t use the service if they (transwomen) we’re present.
Wrong way round. If women would not use the service if a male was present, make it so that women don’t have to discover a man is present in the toilet, the hospital ward, the changing room etc making the service unusable.
The fact that that rule needs to be made because of a small % of tw is not women’s fault.
Perhaps if those supporting ALL tw made it clear they did NOT support those ill-intentioned TW (easy) and instead supported arrangements to protect females from the ill-intentioned tw, there would be some progress.

Whitewavemark2

And the term gender neutral - does that mean that the role an individual conforms to neither the accepted gender roles.

That is interesting how do they behave differently from a man or woman?

It means the individual refuses to be identified as either gender. They use a genderless name, use the pronun "they" and dress as they like. If you watched Pottery Throwdown AJ was gender neutral. Took me a bit to pick it up and when their mother called them "they" I was confused for a bit

Doodledog

I believe that misogyny does underpin the idea that womanhood is available to anyone, that safe spaces are not necessary and that the language should be changed to accommodate tiny numbers of people (eg pregnant transmen in maternity wards). It also explains the inability to understand why women would object to being asked to 'reframe the trauma' of rape, be worried at the idea of male sex-offenders sharing prison cells and furious at the idea of men competing with them in high level sport.

How could someone who cares about women believe that these things are ok? Sorry, but I stand by any posts I have made that have said so. The misogyny may well have been internalised, but it is there.

As for accusations - trisher it was only yesterday that you said that I had condoned violence because I pointed out that a poetry event had moved online, not been cancelled. I hadn't done so, and when I challenged the accusation, I was told that because I hadn't specifically posted that alleged threats of violence were wrong that I was as bad as those making the threats. I have also been called right wing, racist, homophobic and even Nazi at one point! My professionalism has been called into question, and the lived experience of my younger days doubted. Oh, and when I said that I was looking at Zoom screens with pronouns next to the participants' names, it was strongly implied that I was lying. All of these things were said or done by you, although you are not alone in resorting to such insults or slurs.

This whole thread is based on a false premise. I'm sure that it hasn't gone in quite the way it was intended, although I am pleased that (so far) it has remained civil. I am unable to let the victim-playing pass unchallenged, though - and I am certain that others who have followed 'trans threads' will have seen the things that I mention and will be nodding in agreement.

Have I actually said "safe spaces are not necessary" Doodledog has anyone?
Why is it mysogyny to consider that women is a gender construct that is delineated in society by certain sorts of behaviour and not a biological fact? Especially when the belief is not confined just to women but encompasses men? One of the problems with the gender critical is their insistance on focussing on transwomen and ignoring transmen until they ask for language to be changed to accommodate them. Then they cease to be women who matter and become people who can be ignored.
I think people should be treated as the gender they present as. That's how it has always worked. There is nothing new about transgenderism. People have been passing as the opposite gender to the one their body says they should be for centuries. The fact that there are now some individuals who choose to use this idea for nefarious purposes shouldn't stop us accepting and accommodating transpeople any more than a male paedophile stops us accepting men or an abusive mother stops us accepting women.

And the term gender neutral - does that mean that the role an individual conforms to neither the accepted gender roles.

That is interesting how do they behave differently from a man or woman?

I had to look up the reason for and meaning of the term natal woman. Interested to read that it is a Trans term - whatever that means.

So why not use the term biological sex?

I'm pleased about the civility of it too, Doodledog. It's so nice to have a discussion and be friendly with it.

I believe that misogyny does underpin the idea that womanhood is available to anyone, that safe spaces are not necessary and that the language should be changed to accommodate tiny numbers of people (eg pregnant transmen in maternity wards). It also explains the inability to understand why women would object to being asked to 'reframe the trauma' of rape, be worried at the idea of male sex-offenders sharing prison cells and furious at the idea of men competing with them in high level sport.

How could someone who cares about women believe that these things are ok? Sorry, but I stand by any posts I have made that have said so. The misogyny may well have been internalised, but it is there.

As for accusations - trisher it was only yesterday that you said that I had condoned violence because I pointed out that a poetry event had moved online, not been cancelled. I hadn't done so, and when I challenged the accusation, I was told that because I hadn't specifically posted that alleged threats of violence were wrong that I was as bad as those making the threats. I have also been called right wing, racist, homophobic and even Nazi at one point! My professionalism has been called into question, and the lived experience of my younger days doubted. Oh, and when I said that I was looking at Zoom screens with pronouns next to the participants' names, it was strongly implied that I was lying. All of these things were said or done by you, although you are not alone in resorting to such insults or slurs.

This whole thread is based on a false premise. I'm sure that it hasn't gone in quite the way it was intended, although I am pleased that (so far) it has remained civil. I am unable to let the victim-playing pass unchallenged, though - and I am certain that others who have followed 'trans threads' will have seen the things that I mention and will be nodding in agreement.

*censured autocorrect strikes again!

Libman

I’ve been reading all the threads today and not once have I seen any sign of anyone being intimidated for having opposing views ?‍♀️ Hope that isn’t a disappointment to anyone.

I agree. It makes a really nice change.

Firstly I accept totally that there are places and occasions when transwomen may not be welcome and the law actually covers this saying even if they have a GRC they can be excluded if women would not use the service if they were present.
And you know as well as I do that far too many organisations are so terrified of being labelled transphobic that it's not implemented. Would it be too much to ask transwomen to be respectful of these places without having to be censored by the law? Of course some transwomen do this naturally, Fionne Orlander being one.

I think gender neutral toilets should be the norm, how on earth can we expect men to take equal responsibility for childcare if the only place they can take their daughter is a male toilet
Yet on another thread you were advocating for women to use the male toilets, so why the problem with taking a daughter into a cubicle there?

Hope that isn’t a disappointment to anyone.

I suspect it might be Libman. It suits the narrative of "oppression of the trans movement".

I’ve been reading all the threads today and not once have I seen any sign of anyone being intimidated for having opposing views ?‍♀️ Hope that isn’t a disappointment to anyone.

trisher

Well I go out for the day and it all kicks off.
I have on other trans-threads been told I'm mysogynistic, don't care about women and aprove of violence. None of which are true, But if you have trans supportive views it seems to be the only way those views can be countered.
Firstly I accept totally that there are places and occasions when transwomen may not be welcome and the law actually covers this saying even if they have a GRC they can be excluded if women would not use the service if they were present.
I think gender neutral toilets should be the norm, how on earth can we expect men to take equal responsibility for childcare if the only place they can take their daughter is a male toilet? Places should be family friendly and that would solve the trans issue.
Where I have real doubts is in the area of women needing safe spaces. Because it seems to me a small step from women being provided with safe spaces to women being restricted to safe spaces. I think the concept that women are permanently in danger from male agression is a dangerous one. I want to see all spaces safe for women and that includes transwomen. And I don't think it is transpeople who are actually the real danger. I think women's rights are not on the whole threatened by transwomen they are threatend by certain right wing elements who would see our hard women freedoms rolled back and who are willing to use the trans issue to acheive this.

If you are addressing me regarding “safe spaces” what I argued is that sexual behaviour has and is always controlled by society and there are rules governing that behaviour in every known society throughout our existence.

My argument is that those who choose to continue as one sex but take on the gender role of another should not be able to opt out of those rules.

Potato potato SL2012.

The perspective of the title (which I stand by) depends which side of the debate you're on.

What do you mean by it all kicks off trisher?. IMO there have once again been some very sensible posts on this subject despite the false claims made in the thread's title, or was it the creation of this thread you were referring too?

Well I go out for the day and it all kicks off.
I have on other trans-threads been told I'm mysogynistic, don't care about women and aprove of violence. None of which are true, But if you have trans supportive views it seems to be the only way those views can be countered.
Firstly I accept totally that there are places and occasions when transwomen may not be welcome and the law actually covers this saying even if they have a GRC they can be excluded if women would not use the service if they were present.
I think gender neutral toilets should be the norm, how on earth can we expect men to take equal responsibility for childcare if the only place they can take their daughter is a male toilet? Places should be family friendly and that would solve the trans issue.
Where I have real doubts is in the area of women needing safe spaces. Because it seems to me a small step from women being provided with safe spaces to women being restricted to safe spaces. I think the concept that women are permanently in danger from male agression is a dangerous one. I want to see all spaces safe for women and that includes transwomen. And I don't think it is transpeople who are actually the real danger. I think women's rights are not on the whole threatened by transwomen they are threatend by certain right wing elements who would see our hard women freedoms rolled back and who are willing to use the trans issue to acheive this.

Whitewavemark2

So a male who chooses to retain his testosterone and ability to copulate as a man, should still in my opinion be subject to the same societal rules that govern sexual behaviour as every other male

There is absolutely nothing stopping him as a man dressing or acting out a woman’s role as he wishes. He has a right to do so without hinderance or harm.

But as a male he has no right to impinge on accepted safe female spaces. By invading these spaces he is, in my opinion breaking a fundamental right that women have - a right to be free from fear of hinderance and sexual harm.

Agreed.

Activists permanently demand more because if their original demands are met they become redundant.

I believe that this is what happened to Stonewall. They were a real force for good in the 70s when they fought for LGB rights. They did so well, in fact, that they became redundant and looked for other allied causes to espouse, and now they are more about trans rights than anything.

Chewbacca

Whitewave your post @ 15.46 is exactly what I, and many others, have' been trying to get across for many months over many threads. ?

I shan’t hold out much hope then ? - Be pleased ( do I hear a groan) to read criticisms of my conclusion.

Can anyone tell me what they mean by trans rights.

What I mean is - does that term cover just people who are transitioning from one sex to another through medical intervention

Or men or women who adopt a gender role without giving up their sex.

Or both?

Because if it is both it seems very unsatisfactory.

Whitewave your post @ 15.46 is exactly what I, and many others, have' been trying to get across for many months over many threads. ?