Deliberate and orchestrated silencing of trans rights supporters on GN

I don't think that it is essential harmless to have men identifying as women when they want to be part of something that was set up by women for women, though.

It doesn't have to be about physical danger - it can be 'just' stopping women from having anything of our own. A celebration of women in poetry, or a vagina museum are just two recent examples that have been discussed on here. I have no real interest in a vagina museum, but can see that transwomen using it to celebrate their 'womanhood' on International Women's Day is nothing short of an insult.

Mollygo

Whitewavemark2
It is all very well for you lot, but I’m still stuck on the question

Is it gender or sex?
Gender is a social construct and can be changed at whim as has been shown on here.
Sex is immutable and cannot be changed.

Some trans are more concerned with living as their desired gender. Some are desperate for medical intervention.
Most educated people, whether trans or not realise that medical intervention does not change your sex.

? yes I actually addressed that issue early on I’m ahead of that now.

The question I’m stuck on the question of what ‘pushes’ someone to transition from one sex to another is societal/cultural based or biological.

And yes, I agree (at the moment) that the sex you are born with is immutable.

Let’s assume that at the moment there is no answer to the question about whether a person wanting to change his gender is driven by society/culture or a biological difference that scientists have not yet established. Which I think is more or less where we are at.

My next question is and this is what I think is driving the arguments on this thread and the other one is.

Do those who are undergoing sexual transition have a right to be treated the same as every other individual of the gender to which they have transitioned in society?

Now this is where my ignorance is clear here.

Are there individuals who remain the same birth sex, but who wish to be treated as the opposite gender? Do they have the same rights as society treats men or women or both. I’m not talking about fundamental rights but the sort of rights that cause a massive argument.

This is where it seems the difficulty lies if there are such individuals.

And of course we have the additional question of - if an individual is born say female but at puberty the body is flooded with testosterone for some reason giving her the physique of a male, how do we deal with this in say sport?

Or even are these the right questions.?

Totally confused over this issue.
What’s the difference between trans people ( who literally change sex over a number of years and operations ) and people who identify as a man/,woman but have, & never will have, the operation?
How can a man say he wants to be accepted as a woman just because he feels like one on any particular day? It’s like something out of Monty Python. But essentially harmless, as long as he doesn’t have the right to be sent to a woman’s prison for example.

From reading mumsnet I know a lot of feminists feel politically lost, as they traditionally vote Labour but feel the Labour Party been totally betrayed them over women’s rights.
They’re actually agreeing with Boris!
Feminists have traditionally fought for the rights of every minority under the sun, so now their fight has literally bitten them on the bum ( with massive teeth ) it’s very difficult for them.
On paper, feminists shouldn’t have a problem with any minority wanting equal rights. But they have with this.

Oldnproud

I have to say, I haven't seen anything that struck me as "deliberate and orchestrated silencing of trans rights supporters" on the site - just people giving their opinions of it, and those opinions have seemed to me to be equally strongly expressed by those on both sides of the argument.

Thank you, Oldnproud.

I do get sick of the 'GCs' being cast as oppressive silencers. It's not fair, not true, and it's good to see that recognised.

Whitewavemark2
It is all very well for you lot, but I’m still stuck on the question

Is it gender or sex?
Gender is a social construct and can be changed at whim as has been shown on here.
Sex is immutable and cannot be changed.

Some trans are more concerned with living as their desired gender. Some are desperate for medical intervention.
Most educated people, whether trans or not realise that medical intervention does not change your sex.

No one is getting me to go camping mind, I have my limits.

Galaxy

I think your posts have been very fair WW, whichever 'camp' you are in.

I concur. All in all, a really good discussion and a pleasure to take part!

I have to say, I haven't seen anything that struck me as "deliberate and orchestrated silencing of trans rights supporters" on the site - just people giving their opinions of it, and those opinions have seemed to me to be equally strongly expressed by those on both sides of the argument.

I love this. It says the truth so well it needs reiterating. Thank you Rosie51.

I think your posts have been very fair WW, whichever 'camp' you are in.

Whitewavemark2

It is all very well for you lot, but I’m still stuck on the question

Is it gender or sex?

I'm sure it is both. For some, it is their biology. For some, it is their gender representation.

Some are more concerned with living as their desired gender. Some are desperate for medical intervention.

Look the sun beckons. Must just dash out and tie in the ramping clematis and plant some seedling primroses for next year.

Doodledog

WWM2 I honestly think we are saying the same thing as one another.

Yes we are. But where we differ is how far along the argument we are. I’m still stuck at base camp 1.

Gender is the construct - sex is the biology, so it depends on what 'it' is .

WWM2 I honestly think we are saying the same thing as one another.

It is all very well for you lot, but I’m still stuck on the question

Is it gender or sex?

Agreed, GG13.

And the same applies to men wanting to muscle in on women's poetry events, or museums of the vagina. There is little enough that is done by women for women - most things are nod 'gendered' as there is no need - but when there is, there is aways a man wanting to make it for them, too. If we were talking about a poet who 'lived as a woman' in all aspects of their life, I wouldn't object, but when it's a man with a beard who talks about his 'dick', I can't help but see it as a political move to take space from women.

This article written by a friend of mine says it far better than I ever could.

My friend is a transwoman.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/at-least-boris-johnson-knows-the-difference-between-men-and-women

Time for my poster again before I head outside.

That is what social historians do. They take imperfect texts and sift the information available.

There are very few historical texts that offer a complete account of what it meant to be trans, before trans was a recognised category and word.

Academics such as Alan Sinfield studied non-conformative gender representations from groups such as Molly Boys, who we would probably now define as gay male prostitutes.

It's part of the patchwork of understanding we have.

Doodledog

*In the same way, Sojourner Truth's 'Ain't I a Woman' speech is used as a deconstruct of gender.*
That's just inferred intertextuality, though. You could equally say that Bohemian Rhapsody is about dying of AIDS, even though it can't possibly have been. You can't apply the words of another age to the politics of this one and assume that they meant the same thing. None of that is relevant to this discussion though, however academically interesting it is in other contexts.

WWM2 I think that 'society' does allow people to choose which gender norms to follow. I appreciate that it won't be as easy for a bloke from a housing estate to wear a dress as it is for Grayson Perry, but men are not stuck with wearing ties on the beach any more. It's not at all unusual for men to 'be in touch with their feminine side' and not to be pilloried for it. Women provide for families and drink pints. And so on.

They may seem like trivial examples, but I am struggling to find more profound ones. What do men want to do that they can't unless they 'become' women? Apart from compete in women's sports and have access to women's spaces, that is.

Just nipped in. Can’t let this go today?.

No I’m talking about society at different periods in its history. Or indeed in different countries.

So in Islamic countries I suspect the penalty for dressing as a woman if you are a man if pretty severe. And likewise in different periods of history.

Culture changes over time and societal norms are reflective or are indeed cultural.

There are strict categories in para sport, there are different weights in boxing, you do not have 10yr olds running races, swimming agains 16yr olds.

These rules are there for a reason, to make sport a level playing field for those who take part.

I do not want to see men who ID as women competing against women, it will destroy womens sport.

A swimmer ranked 462 in male swimming, decides to ID as a women and after a few races is No.1 in female swimming,

Female sport should not be open to failed Male athletes.

In the same way, Sojourner Truth's 'Ain't I a Woman' speech is used as a deconstruct of gender.
That's just inferred intertextuality, though. You could equally say that Bohemian Rhapsody is about dying of AIDS, even though it can't possibly have been. You can't apply the words of another age to the politics of this one and assume that they meant the same thing. None of that is relevant to this discussion though, however academically interesting it is in other contexts.

WWM2 I think that 'society' does allow people to choose which gender norms to follow. I appreciate that it won't be as easy for a bloke from a housing estate to wear a dress as it is for Grayson Perry, but men are not stuck with wearing ties on the beach any more. It's not at all unusual for men to 'be in touch with their feminine side' and not to be pilloried for it. Women provide for families and drink pints. And so on.

They may seem like trivial examples, but I am struggling to find more profound ones. What do men want to do that they can't unless they 'become' women? Apart from compete in women's sports and have access to women's spaces, that is.

BlueBelle

Good post Veganrock
Life is very simple for me
I don’t care what anyone wears, clothes, make up, nail varnish high heels
I don’t care who anyone has sex with
I don’t care what anyone calls themselves
But
I do not want a man competing against women in sport
I do not want a man in my toilet or my changing room or a womens refuge etc
And
A man is someone who dresses and talks and has sex however he wishes, but has male genitalia
Life in Bluebelles world is very simple

Life in my world is simple too Bluebelle.