Deliberate and orchestrated silencing of trans rights supporters on GN

GagaJo

Whitewavemark2

So the young male, who at pre-puberty is uncomfortable in his assigned gender role.

My question is, what is pushing him to try to change his gender.

Is it simply a rejection of his gender or is it something in his biology?

Now I am stuck. As I don’t know. It makes a huge difference in the answer to this as one is a preference and the other is predetermined I think.

I think the answer to that one will differ, according to the individual.

Just a quick reply, then I’m definitely going outside in the sun.

If it is biology than that individual will have no choice unless he chooses and struggles to ignore the biology.

If it is society then that individual does have choice providing society allows that choice.

Have a good day all

FannyCornforth

So, I still don’t know the answer to my question.
VioletSky it appears that you have accused me of being ‘dishonest’?
I’ve no idea what you’ve said on other threads regarding Intersectional Feminism as I don’t slavishly follow those threads.
I am still under the impression that you and others might be hijacking the theory.

Hang on another one, comments are just moving too fast

I have answered "what is a woman" with what it means to me many times. It's a good enough answer. It's not true that it hasn't been answered.

Yes let’s go and enjoy the sun and pick this up later.

Oh, one more thing quickly

I think Gagajo seems to be a genuinely decent person. Nothing about her character seems questionable. I've seen other genuinely nice people put off from these threads too.

Why is it actually too much to ask that people consider why she feels as she does and perhaps commit to changes that make everyone feel welcome in these discussions?

Chewbacca

I have a ceiling that you could be painting for me FannyC?

It’s a toss up between the sock drawer and the cutlery draw today I think ? ?

Whitewavemark2

So the young male, who at pre-puberty is uncomfortable in his assigned gender role.

My question is, what is pushing him to try to change his gender.

Is it simply a rejection of his gender or is it something in his biology?

Now I am stuck. As I don’t know. It makes a huge difference in the answer to this as one is a preference and the other is predetermined I think.

I think the answer to that one will differ, according to the individual.

So, I still don’t know the answer to my question.
VioletSky it appears that you have accused me of being ‘dishonest’?
I’ve no idea what you’ve said on other threads regarding Intersectional Feminism as I don’t slavishly follow those threads.
I am still under the impression that you and others might be hijacking the theory.

the 'becoming a virgin' thing is meaningless to me in this regard. QE1 was talking about a shift in her PR strategy, surely?

Yes, but historically, we don't have the wealth of info about this issues that we do now.

In the same way, Sojourner Truth's 'Ain't I a Woman' speech is used as a deconstruct of gender.

Oh I see WW. I dont think anybody can answer that question because the research appears to have been fairly lacking to put it politely. The Cass report which concerns provision for children with gender dysphoria is saying there is a clear lack of evidence on what is the best way forward. There has also been an unexplained increase in female to male transition recently and they seem to be struggling to understand this as well.

Doodledog

You have misunderstood what I have said. You are born male or female. You don’t feel anything, no more than your heart or arms or lungs make you feel anything. You are assigned your gender at birth by societal construct. That is what makes you feel a particular gender. But imagine society was turned on its head and a biological male was treated exactly as a female from birth. His gender would be female.*

I get that, yes. That's what I was meaning by 'gender norms' - we learn them as we are socialised, and if they changed so that if we were born into a society where women were warriors we would see war-like behaviour as female. Gender norms are associated with sex, but are not because of it. If they were because of sex they would be the same the world over.

That's why (IMO) we should concentrate on making it easier for people of either sex to follow whichever behavioural norms they like, and not to feel that they have to become the sex that is more usually associated with the ones they prefer, in order to do so.

Yes I am actually ahead of you there. That is what I think I think, but I don’t know and need to work towards it, but I’m stuck on a question at the moment, and unless I can find an answer to the roll biology plays (if any) I’ve a feeling that I’m stuck on the fence.

Still, ever onwards as they say!

I have a ceiling that you could be painting for me FannyC?

GagaJo

A woman is a social construct. Most women are identified as female at birth, but some are not.

In the same way QE1 is reputed to have said, 'One has become a virgin', we all 'become' women. Our routes to get there can differ.

So your definition of 'a woman' is 'a social construct'? I'm not sure I follow, so please bear with me.

In that case, when gender constructs change, which they do all the time, will those who claim to have 'transitioned' go back to being men? Or retransition to something different?

Why do they feel the need to enter women's spaces if all they are doing is conforming to constructed norms?

And how is it ok to compete in women's teams/sports when the norm is that those races are run by biological females, not 'constructed' ones?

(the 'becoming a virgin' thing is meaningless to me in this regard. QE1 was talking about a shift in her PR strategy, surely?)

In the same way QE1 is reputed to have said, 'One has become a virgin', well she was plainly wrong then. One is a virgin all the while one has not had sexual intercourse. Once one has had sexual intercourse one is no longer a virgin, and can never return to a virgin state. Surgery can repair the broken hymen to resemble an intact one, but it can't alter that one has had sexual intercourse, and therefore one is no longer a virgin.

Anyway it's a beautiful day here and I need to be outside in it.

These discussions matter but not enough to sacrifice time that is important to me to going round and round in circles.

I see trans women as women. I accept them and I am always willing to do whatever is necessary to allow all women go live their authentic lives safely without any one group being discriminated against to do so.

This is all for too elliptical for me now.
I’m off to do some more reading.
If anyone has any recommendations I would welcome them.

So the young male, who at pre-puberty is uncomfortable in his assigned gender role.

My question is, what is pushing him to try to change his gender.

Is it simply a rejection of his gender or is it something in his biology?

Now I am stuck. As I don’t know. It makes a huge difference in the answer to this as one is a preference and the other is predetermined I think.

Sorry - the first paragraph was meant to be a quote.

Jo (again, sorry) was that an answer to my question about Intersectional Feminism?
I

Sorry whitewave I think it was you who said that some people wont be comfortable with their gender role. I would say that many people feel that, so I hate many of the gender expectations placed on women and continue rail against them. For me, and I am quite happy to say that I find gender oppressive and not something that we want to embrace so to speak

GagaJo

Chewbacca it isn't the views that don't align that are the problem. It is the insults that filter into the threads. And the rudeness.

A contrary belief or point is what debate and discussion are about. The very bread and butter of it. It is to be welcomed.

Yes I agree with that

Also if you answer a question with your view that's a good enough answer and should be treated as acceptable whether or not the other person agrees.

Also demands to answer questions should stop, no one has all the answers or should be forced to answer the same ones over and over again or a discussion becomes an interigation.

I know some threads do become quite unfriendly and result in personal attacks being deleted on all sorts of issues but, this discussion has been going on on gransnet across several threads for quite some time and there isn't any justification to treat others as less than because you believe they hold a minority view.

You have misunderstood what I have said. You are born male or female. You don’t feel anything, no more than your heart or arms or lungs make you feel anything. You are assigned your gender at birth by societal construct. That is what makes you feel a particular gender. But imagine society was turned on its head and a biological male was treated exactly as a female from birth. His gender would be female.*

I get that, yes. That's what I was meaning by 'gender norms' - we learn them as we are socialised, and if they changed so that if we were born into a society where women were warriors we would see war-like behaviour as female. Gender norms are associated with sex, but are not because of it. If they were because of sex they would be the same the world over.

That's why (IMO) we should concentrate on making it easier for people of either sex to follow whichever behavioural norms they like, and not to feel that they have to become the sex that is more usually associated with the ones they prefer, in order to do so.

GagaJo

A woman is a social construct. Most women are identified as female at birth, but some are not.

In the same way QE1 is reputed to have said, 'One has become a virgin', we all 'become' women. Our routes to get there can differ.

Jo that just sounds like utter bobbins to me

VioletSky

Whitewavemark2

By the time the child is at school it is entirely established in its gender role.

However, for some reason a tiny minority of individuals are not comfortable with the gender role assigned to them and seek to take on the mantle of the role of another gender.

Meanwhile their biological sex remains unchanged.

So a boy will endeavour to adopt the roll of a girl.

Now my next big question is this - is it the gender that pursues the need to not only change the constructed role but the physical appearance of the biological male body or is it a biological need.

My argument would be that it is a gender issue and not a biological one.

There are studies being done that do show biological differences. So far 21 in 17 genes (I'm trusting my memory here) and there is evidence that at some stage in development the brain is flushed with different levels of hormones. You can look into the science behind transgender. I'd go find the links but I have done that before and been ignored or told the research is too old at 2 years even though the findings remain unchallenged.

I think eventually we will understand this more and why so many are suffering from gender dysphoria which results in awful mental health without the opportunity to transition.

Yes all the time I’m working through my understanding, I have this massive elephant named hormone that will have to be dealt with?.

I’m not a scientist so will have difficulty with that one.

A woman is a social construct. Most women are identified as female at birth, but some are not.

In the same way QE1 is reputed to have said, 'One has become a virgin', we all 'become' women. Our routes to get there can differ.