Deliberate and orchestrated silencing of trans rights supporters on GN

VioletSky

It's dishonest to suggest I've never answered that question, I have several times.

Was that to me?

You’re so right Bluebelle. Save me a place in your world.

It's dishonest to suggest I've never answered that question, I have several times.

Chewbacca it isn't the views that don't align that are the problem. It is the insults that filter into the threads. And the rudeness.

A contrary belief or point is what debate and discussion are about. The very bread and butter of it. It is to be welcomed.

Chewbacca

Orchestrated silencing = the majority don't agree with me and I don't like it.

Yes, and the references to 'silencing' and 'abuse' that supposedly happen are all very abstract and have not happened on this thread, despite the fact that its very premise is that the TRAs need to be protected from 'animosity and personal insults'.

Have I missed the answer to my question about what the TRA lobby understand by the word 'woman'? It really is fundamental to the debate. The 'gender critical' are happy to define a woman as an adult human female - someone with female gametes (whether or not she has a uterus or ovaries) and say that we believe this to be a fixed state. A man is defined in the same way, but with male gametes.

Clearly, the TRAs disagree, but they are not willing (or able) to say how, why, or in what way they define a woman. This is why we end up saying the same thing over and over, to the annoyance of many on GN. It is also why the debate can't advance in a meaningful fashion.

Far from silencing anyone, I am pleading with them to put their point of view out there - what is a woman?

Whitewavemark2

By the time the child is at school it is entirely established in its gender role.

However, for some reason a tiny minority of individuals are not comfortable with the gender role assigned to them and seek to take on the mantle of the role of another gender.

Meanwhile their biological sex remains unchanged.

So a boy will endeavour to adopt the roll of a girl.

Now my next big question is this - is it the gender that pursues the need to not only change the constructed role but the physical appearance of the biological male body or is it a biological need.

My argument would be that it is a gender issue and not a biological one.

There are studies being done that do show biological differences. So far 21 in 17 genes (I'm trusting my memory here) and there is evidence that at some stage in development the brain is flushed with different levels of hormones. You can look into the science behind transgender. I'd go find the links but I have done that before and been ignored or told the research is too old at 2 years even though the findings remain unchallenged.

I think eventually we will understand this more and why so many are suffering from gender dysphoria which results in awful mental health without the opportunity to transition.

FannyCornforth

VioletSky you call yourself an intersectional feminist; can you answer my question please?

WW GCF - Gender Critical Feminism (I believe in this)

TWAW - Trans women are Women (I don’t believe this)

Thanks. I hope to reach those heady opinions eventually?

Doodledog

Whitewavemark2

The first big question I have when addressing the issue of someone deciding that they want to change is, is it a societal issue or a biological issue that makes them feel as they do?

I know it seems a bit like splitting hairs but it does matter.

With respect, you can't ask that question before knowing what it is that being 'male' or 'female' means. How can someone know they are in 'the wrong body', unless they know what it feels like to be in the other kind? How do you and I know that we both feel the same about being women? Or that we would feel differently if we were men?

IMO, we don't. We know what sex we are because of gametes, which cannot be changed, regardless of our sex organs. People only ever have one kid of gametes or the other, and they are impossible to transplant or alter. Whether we are comfortable dressing in jeans and docs or floral dresses and kitten heels is about style, not sex, and many of us (me included) do both, without changing 'gender' as we do it. Similarly we can both nurture and provide for our children whether we are mothers or fathers.

It seems to me to be a regressive step to say that there are some behaviours that show we are male and others female, which is why I criticise the gendered way of looking at society. I believe that we should have choice, and that we don't need to change sex to change behavioural norms.

You have misunderstood what I have said.

You are born male or female. You don’t feel anything, no more than your heart or arms or lungs make you feel anything.

You are assigned your gender at birth by societal construct. That is what makes you feel a particular gender.

But imagine society was turned on its head and a biological male was treated exactly as a female from birth. His gender would be female.

VioletSky you call yourself an intersectional feminist; can you answer my question please?

WW GCF - Gender Critical Feminism (I believe in this)

TWAW - Trans women are Women (I don’t believe this)

I completely agree with BlueBelle. And it's good to have it put in simple language.

By the time the child is at school it is entirely established in its gender role.

However, for some reason a tiny minority of individuals are not comfortable with the gender role assigned to them and seek to take on the mantle of the role of another gender.

Meanwhile their biological sex remains unchanged.

So a boy will endeavour to adopt the roll of a girl.

Now my next big question is this - is it the gender that pursues the need to not only change the constructed role but the physical appearance of the biological male body or is it a biological need.

My argument would be that it is a gender issue and not a biological one.

Orchestrated silencing = the majority don't agree with me and I don't like it.

One of the first upsetting replies to any issue is often along the lines of

"I'm sure trans allies will be along to explain the indefensible"

This immediately sets the tone that any trans ally is somehow responsible for the behaviour of extremists and violent awful people.

None of us have ever defended that and average every day trans people just aren't responsible for that.

That's why we have to speak out to protect. That's why we can't stay quiet even if it means personal attacks.

Budge up and make room MacCavity2, it looks like it could get a bit crowded in BlueBelle's world

I don’t usually join in threads about trans issues, there are other platforms than Gransnet which I personally find more appropriate.

However I do generally read them and I haven’t noticed any orchestrated silencing.

Are any transwomen or transmen members of Gransnet?

Gagajo it's because there aren't any "trans activists" here to have a go at.

Just people who want to find acceptance for trans people.

Hate crimes against trans people have quadrupled since these discussions began, yet people can't acknowledge that they are putting us or trans people in the same boat as awful men who use the fact that train people's rights are being protected as an opportunity to commit crimes.

Those men would have used any opportunity.

Butch lesbians and women who look a bit masculine have also been attacked due to the belief they are trans.

I keep saying that these issued need to be discussed with kindness towards trans people and their allies because without that, the direct result is emboldening transphobia and discrimination because the evidence is there it is happening.

Everyone should be able to be safe and protected, all of us.

Yet trans people are getting scapegoated for the issues that have arisen purely by their existence which can't be helped.

That doesn't mean anyone here would ever directly cause harm to trans people but they may be indirectly causing harm by making those who feel the same way and are happy to attack trans people feel powerful

I also live in “Bluebells “ world.

Whitewavemark2

The first big question I have when addressing the issue of someone deciding that they want to change is, is it a societal issue or a biological issue that makes them feel as they do?

I know it seems a bit like splitting hairs but it does matter.

With respect, you can't ask that question before knowing what it is that being 'male' or 'female' means. How can someone know they are in 'the wrong body', unless they know what it feels like to be in the other kind? How do you and I know that we both feel the same about being women? Or that we would feel differently if we were men?

IMO, we don't. We know what sex we are because of gametes, which cannot be changed, regardless of our sex organs. People only ever have one kid of gametes or the other, and they are impossible to transplant or alter. Whether we are comfortable dressing in jeans and docs or floral dresses and kitten heels is about style, not sex, and many of us (me included) do both, without changing 'gender' as we do it. Similarly we can both nurture and provide for our children whether we are mothers or fathers.

It seems to me to be a regressive step to say that there are some behaviours that show we are male and others female, which is why I criticise the gendered way of looking at society. I believe that we should have choice, and that we don't need to change sex to change behavioural norms.

What really isn't helpful in any discussion on this subject is the repetitive complaints and accusations that, those with views that don't align with your own, are therefore "abusive". This has become the rallying cry of the vocal trans activists who have created the situation in which any woman, who dares to question whether we can change sex is called a terf, is subject to horrendous threats and, if she has a public profile, she's "cancelled". Perfectly decent, reasonable, well educated women, who want to gather to talk about their own life experiences, now need a police prescence to protect them from the physical and verbal abuse by those same people who are demanding that their voices be heard. It seems ironic that some are demanding that a very tiny section of society be given a bigger platform and a louder voice but they appear to be oblivious to the slow, but inexorable, quietening of the voices of 50% of the population. And that's visible right here, on GN. Thank God for the brave and vocal young women on Mumsnet!

Right - remind me GCF, TWAW.

I am very new to these issues as you can tell.

So addressing my first question.

A baby is born biologically male.

From day 1 his life experience will be entirely different to that of a female baby.

Society will assign him with a gender and societies attitude towards the boy and expectations of his behaviour will be instilled from day 1.

The males’ sex is as intrinsic to that child as his brain, heart, arms or legs. That can never be changed.

I agree Fanny. The same arguments by the same people over and over again. It gets very tedious. Been there, done that, remember the insults hurled by the TWAW lobby. If they were all on this thread (there aren’t many of them) there would have been a lot of nastiness and deletions by now.

WW that’s why it has to be GCF for me all day long.
No one should feel or be made to feel that they were ‘born in the wrong body’.

Off now to move my ass and get something done. I’ll think about it as I go.

The first big question I have when addressing the issue of someone deciding that they want to change is, is it a societal issue or a biological issue that makes them feel as they do?

I know it seems a bit like splitting hairs but it does matter.

I know Iam64, I know that my post sounded a bit daft.
Another bear with me from me!