Deliberate and orchestrated silencing of trans rights supporters on GN

FannyC, it’s a hot current topic, I guess that’s why the discussion/argument continues.

Iam64

White wave, never assume.

I know, I thought once I posted it - bugger?. But bear with - as Miranda’s friend says.

I’m not being faux naïve here, honestly.

Why do we have to keep on discussing / arguing about this among ourselves?

We all (or most of us) know our our own minds and beliefs and we aren’t going to change them.
Some of us believe that TWAW; others don’t.

I’d still like to know about intersectional feminism though.

So using the terms woman to describe gender and female to describe biological fact seems helpful.

So a child is born with its biological sex (I know there are anomalies), but it’s behaviour and life outcomes are determined by its gender.

Good post Veganrock
Life is very simple for me
I don’t care what anyone wears, clothes, make up, nail varnish high heels
I don’t care who anyone has sex with
I don’t care what anyone calls themselves
But
I do not want a man competing against women in sport
I do not want a man in my toilet or my changing room or a womens refuge etc
And
A man is someone who dresses and talks and has sex however he wishes, but has male genitalia
Life in Bluebelles world is very simple

White wave, never assume.

Given that gender is a societal construct, then we agree that sex is a biological construct?

The two are very different I think.

I assume we agree that gender is a societal construct?

The first two posts in this thread contain statements which the posters think are being denied by all other posters on GN.

a) "Trans people are included, they have rights, they matter and they are equal in my eyes as an intersectional feminist." They are human beings, of course they matter. I haven't seen anyone who would deny Trans Women basic rights or "equality" - but exactly what rights, and equality to whom?

Women have equality with men - supposedly - but in separated competitive sports men rely on the relative size, innate muscle development and killer instincts that come naturally to most of them through the testosterone rush of puberty. (Castrati singers, deprived of their testosterone production before puberty in the most brutal way, used to develop the most beautiful high voices through the absence of that testosterone rush - that is one evidence of how powerful it is.)

Some men are a danger to women and will look for a way to get access to them. Some women are at risk from some men and as a result of this, seek refuge where no males are admitted. Those transwomen with all their bits and hormones who face the same dangers as women are still males in the context of the traumatised women in refuges . They need refuges too, but not cheek by jowel with those who are fleeing male violence.

And, of course, equality does not mean being identical or wearing exactly the same label. Men and women are equal, male and female are equal, but a man is not a woman and a male is not a female. Words matter.

Where is the equality in allowing complete males to compete againt females on the premise that they believe that they are really female? If a racehorse could state that it is really a human because that is what it believes it is, could Red Rum have been entered for (and won) the men's Olympic running races?

b) Then there is "the orchestrated attacks from gender criticial feminists" Sorry, Gagajo but I am not a "gender critical femiinist" and no-one is orchestrating me. If they tried to do so, I would resist as energetically as I resist the more aggressive transactivists who want to label me a trans hater. Individual people have individual opinions.

No one will be getting an argument from me as I am in a complete muddle about the whole issue.

I need to go back to basics, whatever they are, and try and sort the whole thing out.

No way is the response “deliberate and orchestrated”, much less than the pro trans lobby I would surmise. Very few have any problem with anyone who wants to wear what they like or call themselves what they like- that’s fine. What many people object to is the idea you can “be” something you biologically aren’t and in doing so disadvantage others. Someone who is 40 years old may “identify” as a 5 year old, but we wouldn’t collude and say “Ok then, off to primary school”, we’d think they needed psychological help.

Nannee49

It seems the whole point of this thread is not to open debate at all.

Or to continue an argument.

Re my first comment.
Can someone who labels themselves an ‘intersectional feminist’ please tell me where they have got the idea intersectional feminism includes transwomen from?
I can’t find a source.

Thank you

It would certainly be a good starting point Doodledog.
It concerns me that I hesitated to agree and respond to your post in case there's the view that a cohort is being formed rather than completely disparate individuals open to listening and questioning.

It's great to see the fence sitters on here today and hear what they think.

Nannee49

It seems the whole point of this thread is not to open debate at all.

It is certainly doing what I suspected it would - which is to let readers see where the goading and silencing is coming from.

Maybe there will be more sensible debate when there is an answer to the ’what is a woman’ question, though. Without that as a baseline it’s always going to be impossible. The so-called ‘gender critical’ view is that a woman is an adult human female. We just need the TRA definition to clarify where the differences in our viewpoints lie.

I think most people accept that the majority of transwomen are not part of the vociferous minority who seem hell bent on making life very uncomfortable/dangerous for natal women. There have been several cases of natal women being punched and physically assaulted by aggressive transwomen at rallies.

The case of the woman who was raped on a hospital ward and then that was denied on the basis of there weren't any men present highlights the fear of such a crime happening if female spaces are removed. Ok so such a case maybe rare, but once is enough and in the case of Karen White that person assaulted four women whilst they were in a woman's prison. I don't think it's an overreaction by women per se to have such fears and to express them. Of course MN is a host to many of these arguments, the posters there are mainly a younger demographic than those here and many will have adolescent daughters who are more likely to be affected by the loss of female only spaces that women of our generation have taken for granted. Talking of MN there was a poster on that site who got hauled off by the police in front of her young children for saying something along the lines on a Twitter spat that she didn't believe that a transwoman was a woman. That's an opinion! I wouldn't call it a hate crime. It's amazing to compare the heavy handiness around that perceived transgression compared to the denial on the part of the hospital trust who accused the rape victim on the women only hospital ward, possibly quite ill, of lying about what had happened to her. Which brings to mind another injustice surrounding transwomen issues, of how crimes are recorded as being committed by a woman when in fact that person will have male genitalia.

Then of course there is the sheer unfairness of transwomen competing in competitive sports.

It's quite obvious that most concerns raised are apropos of transwomen and NOT transmen who really aren't seen as a threat, could it be that male traits of aggression are more prevalent in male of the species and it's clear that a small element of transwomen retain those male characteristics and are often spoiling for a fight.

I see no deliberate and orchestrated silencing - that implies there's behind the scenes colluding.

What I do see is many posters are like me and of the opinion that a person with a penis is not a woman, no matter how that person self-identifies.

Some things I can't be budged on.

GagaJo

Equality with whom? - Equality. With other humans. Treated equally. Equal rights to healthcare, employment, essential services.

Established by what means? - Legally and in society.

These are core tenets of feminist. And this is why, as an intersectional feminist, I believe these should be extended these to all.

Ok - In what way(s) are transpeople not equal, treated equally, denied access to healthcare employment or essential services?

These are tenets of decency, incidentally. Many people believe that human rights should be extended to all - you can’t claim that view for intersectional feminists alone!

Where have I been rude GGJ, unless you mean suggesting that you want this to be a GGJ only space by refuting attempts at civil discussion if they don’t agree with you.

Trans Women Are Transwomen.
That’s not harmful to anyone. It’s not discriminatory because it’s the truth.

A couple of points to make. The first, that is your perspective and opinion and I have no issue with you having an opposing POV to me.

But announcing an opinion as truth is contradictory.
Trans Women Are Trans Women. How is that an opinion? It’s the truth, unlike Trans Women are Women, which is an untruth because Women are AHF and TW are not.

This is going well isn't it?

It seems the whole point of this thread is not to open debate at all.

The big question, as I see it, is ‘what is a woman?’, but this never gets answered.

Transwomen say that despite being born male they ‘identify’ as female. I would like to know, in the interests of debate, what that means, please.

How can trans rights activists insist on the right to be a woman (or a man) if they can’t say what that means? How can they claim that what it means to be female is not being diluted by their actions if they don’t know what being female means?

It seems to me that the question is avoided at all costs so that there is ‘wriggle room’, and the definition can shift to whatever they want it to mean at a given time.

So - simple question- can we please have a definition of ‘woman’? How does someone ’know’ that that is what they are, (or what they should be, when it is clear that biologically they are not)?

Trans Women Are Transwomen.
That’s not harmful to anyone. It’s not discriminatory because it’s the truth.

A couple of points to make. The first, that is your perspective and opinion and I have no issue with you having an opposing POV to me.

But announcing an opinion as truth is contradictory.

Transpeople absolutely dont have equal access to healthcare, as gender critical feminists have been saying for by my reckoning at least the last 5 years. The investigations into standards of healthcare provision are partly due to the voices of feminists on this issue and the brave whistleblowers.

Galaxy

I dont think its a GC only space. I see feisty debates on royalty, politics, dogs (it gets very heated over dogs), I dont see anyone claiming to be silenced on those threads because there are differences of opinions.

But unless GN is going to be a GGJ only space, there has to be room for *civil discussion.

1) Why start being rude Mollygo?

2) How can you take exception at discussions remaining civil and polite?