Deliberate and orchestrated silencing of trans rights supporters on GN

trisher

Well I never expected to see such a clear demonstration of discrimination
I do, however, think that they should take a certain amount of responsibility for realising that they are a minority group, and as such might have to think for themselves when it comes to things like childbirth or gynaecology
So once one minority group have been left to fend for themselves who comes next?
Human rights is all about supporting and recognising minorities and providing them with the means to be treated equally. It's the basis of a civilised society.

Well, if crediting people with the sense to take responsibility for realising that they need to think for themselves counts as discrimination to you, there's not a lot I can say, is there?

We all do it. As one example amongst many, I am asthmatic, but I don't expect to see signs at the bottom of every steep hill reminding me to take my inhaler - I take responsibility. Should I be starting threads to complain that I am being discriminated against?

Just putting it out there DD. I believe it, and a few others agree.

No, I don't think there'll be a consensus. Is there ever in life, about anything?

Well I never expected to see such a clear demonstration of discrimination
I do, however, think that they should take a certain amount of responsibility for realising that they are a minority group, and as such might have to think for themselves when it comes to things like childbirth or gynaecology
So once one minority group have been left to fend for themselves who comes next?
Human rights is all about supporting and recognising minorities and providing them with the means to be treated equally. It's the basis of a civilised society.

If you check my OP, I predicted that I would step away from the thread, because we've all said everything we have to say repeatedly. There is nothing new being said. I do pop back now and again, in case there is something new, because it is a topic I'm interested in. But I'm not doing the same thing on repeat.

What would you like to be said? What could possibly come out of these discussions, unless someone changes her mind, which to be honest is not going to happen any time soon?

If the point of this thread was to show that there has been 'deliberate and orchestrated silencing of trans rights supporters on GN', I would say it hasn't achieved any sort of agreement that this is the case.

If the point was to reach a consensus that TWAW however, I think that was always going to be a vain hope, and there are several live competing threads with exactly that intention.

If it was to make the point that transmen rarely feature in the discussions, the point has been made (regularly) that this is because they don't present a threat to anyone, and as non-transphobes posters on here are not really interested in commenting on them in general terms.

Nobody is saying that transpeople shouldn't have as much protection and care as any other human being. I have yet to hear of any rights, protection or care that are denied to them. I do, however, think that they should take a certain amount of responsibility for realising that they are a minority group, and as such might have to think for themselves when it comes to things like childbirth or gynaecology. Not that they shouldn't be entitled to care, but that they can't expect terminology or procedures to be altered to accommodate them - they need to do some of the accommodating.

trisher

I get so tired of these threads which only ever mention transwomen. Let's admit there are transpeople and transmen, who may well present as men when filling forms in, can get pregnant and deserve as much protection and care as any other human being. Which is better, that 100 men have to answer "No" to a question that is virtualy meaningless for them or 1 transman undergoing a procedure which damages the baby he was expecting because he looked like a man, so nobody bothered to ask if he was pregnant?

Not just transmen trisher. Butch women too. I know a couple of butch lesbians who are more masculine than most of the men I know. Could easily pass.

repeating them is not ‘demanding’ answers. Refusing to answer suggests that there is no comeback to what has been asked. Of course there is a comeback. You know my POV. So does Mollygo.

Shouting in capitals that others are demanding? Who did that? I'm rarely on here. I make occasional comments and am nowhere near as emotionally invested in posting as others so certainly won't be visually shouting in caps.

You of all the posters on here know my position. Women are made, not born. Not all women were born with vaginas and a uterus. Pretending you don't know that is my belief is disingenuous. I've said it before, you know it, and so does Mollygo. Repeatedly asking the same question will only get the same answer. Which GC posters will then take umbrage at and start to attack, probably with personal comments / insults. It is tedious and as you know, I'm not going over the same ground again and again.

Playing the ‘Poor me, everyone picks on me’ card is not debate, and nor is twisting words or getting comments cancelled when you don’t like them. If comments are being cancelled, it is probably because they were personal attacks rather than on topic. However, I can say, hand on heart, that I am assuming that, because 1) I haven't read most of the long strings of comments on here and 2) I haven't reported any (hard to report what you haven't read).

If you check my OP, I predicted that I would step away from the thread, because we've all said everything we have to say repeatedly. There is nothing new being said. I do pop back now and again, in case there is something new, because it is a topic I'm interested in. But I'm not doing the same thing on repeat.

I get so tired of these threads which only ever mention transwomen. Let's admit there are transpeople and transmen, who may well present as men when filling forms in, can get pregnant and deserve as much protection and care as any other human being. Which is better, that 100 men have to answer "No" to a question that is virtualy meaningless for them or 1 transman undergoing a procedure which damages the baby he was expecting because he looked like a man, so nobody bothered to ask if he was pregnant?

Doodledog
I'm not being manipulated. I can see what it's for, but can also see that words matter, and the more commonplace this sort of thing becomes the easier it is to slip other nonsense under the wire - that's how propaganda works.

Smileless2012
Would you want a clinician treating you, asking if you were a man, if you could be pregnant? I certainly wouldn't; good grief it's basic biology.

The problem was caused back in 2004, when it was decided to abrogate the rights of women to use the word women exclusively for Adult Human Females and allow males to adopt it, as and when they saw fit.
Many trans had were and still are undoubtedly calling themselves men and women, unnoticed and unresented, because they have no wish to cause damage or harm to females or males.

Then some men began to see claiming to be women (*a word which the 2004 act had made meaningless in relation to females*) as a way to cheat in competitions,
have access to vulnerable females
and deny females rights that they had fought long and hard for.

It is those men and their supporters, who, in order to make what they were doing appear right, shout loudly about ‘silencing of trans’ whilst what they are actually attempting to do is ‘*orchestrate the silencing of females.*
And yes, I know I’ve been warned.
Many trans are undoubtedly appalled by the shame those of their number are bringing upon them, but the voices of the wrongdoers and their supporters grow even louder,
deliberately orchestrating the silence not only females, but the genuine trans themselves.

What is equally relevant in the Telegraph today is the case of Doctor David Mackereth, who was sacked from his post as a disability assessor for the DWP because he refused to renounce his belief that gender is determined biologically at birth, and told his employers he did not want to use the pronouns'he' for someone born female and 'she' for someone born male.
Quoted from the Telegraph. I am well aware of the debate about sex and gender.
Dr. Mackereth took his case to an employment tribunal claiming the refusal to allow him to address a client by their biological sex breached his rights to freedom of thought, conscience and rights to practise his religion.
Apparently the DWP policy is 'that we don't ask questions, we just use whatever pronoun the client prefers.' and also 'his Christian belief is not protected by the Equality Act 2010 but was "mere opinion." '
And a man is to lose his job because of this?

The Daily Mail are running the same divisive trumped up tale.

You'll need a more sophisticated analysis of audience segmentation

I'm going to suppose that the Telegraph have got their segmentation about right; Mainly right-leaning voters of an older age demographic who are worried about the erosion of what they see as traditional values in society.

Sorry, was that condescending? I tend to be when I'm talking about something I know about and someone else tries to belittle me.

*woman, there's only one of me.

There will be one generic form for everyone, but they don't ask everyone every question on the form. Just like the blood test request form, the boxes that are relevant are ticked. those not relevant left blank.
Personal experience of recent-ish mri scans, chemo and radiotherapy, I wasn't once asked if I could be pregnant, nor did anyone ask about my possible prostate. As a post menopausal women maybe they used common sense.

Volver is right. There is one form for everyone. The Telegraph have created a story where there is none.
We need to stop being divided by this nonsense and focus on the real matters in hand.

But no, its PC gone mad and of course you're not being manipulated to think society has gone bonkers. I think you'll find that's how propaganda works.

I don't think PC has gone mad, and nor am I being manipulated. You'll need a more sophisticated analysis of audience segmentation (and a tone of voice that is less condescending) if you want to understand how propaganda works.

I did promise myself to stay off the trans threads and this is why. It's like the M&H Starting Gate.

We'll have no facts here, just umbrage, thank you.

Smileless2012

Your post is relevant Urmstongtan and I agree with it. It's hardly going to help a patient feel confident in the treatment they are receiving, and have confidence in the person delivering that treatment if they are clearly a man, and are asked if they could be pregnant.

Would you want a clinician treating you, asking if you were a man, if you could be pregnant? I certainly wouldn't; good grief it's basic biology.

Exactly Doodledog.

It would certainly lower your faith in their medical capabilities if a DR . asked you if you were male or female when you were lying there practically nude flashing your anatomy for all the world to see.

When is the ludicrous bending over backwards to appease people who ID as a woman/man when they are man/woman, when every cell in their body identifies them as the sex they were born.

The NHS is under enough pressure, enough is enough.

I have been in for 6 scans over the last few years for prostate problems. Never been asked if I was pregnant, but if I was asked, I would say “what do you think”. I feel sorry for the nurses having to ask these sort of questions. Most men of my age will be totally bemused that it is being asked. I know I was being scanned for cancer (along with biopsies). It seems crazy to me that people are having to ask this sort of nonsense so they don’t get sued.

There is an indignant article in the Torygraph that leaves out half the story, and doesn't highlight that there is one form to fill in for everybody regardless of their sex/gender. Becuase having one form saves time and money, and prevents mistakes. And its been that way forever, mainly.

But no, its PC gone mad and of course you're not being manipulated to think society has gone bonkers.

I think you'll find that's how propaganda works.

Your post is relevant Urmstongtan and I agree with it. It's hardly going to help a patient feel confident in the treatment they are receiving, and have confidence in the person delivering that treatment if they are clearly a man, and are asked if they could be pregnant.

Would you want a clinician treating you, asking if you were a man, if you could be pregnant? I certainly wouldn't; good grief it's basic biology.

Exactly Doodledog.

I was asked if I might be pregnant, or was trying to conceive when I had my last Covid jab. Maybe I would have been flattered, had the nurse not snorted and pointed out that she had to ask ?

I'm not being manipulated. I can see what it's for, but can also see that words matter, and the more commonplace this sort of thing becomes the easier it is to slip other nonsense under the wire - that's how propaganda works.

So, a message to all those "disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" posters this morning.

Its a universal form that is used by everyone.

You are being manipulated.

It doesn't matter 'how you may identify your gender'. It is your sex that determines whether or not you might be pregnant.

I find this assumption that transpeople have erased all memory of who they were throughout their formative years quite insulting. Surely there is no suggestion that 'identifying as another gender' affects their cognitive ability?

Actually sorry everyone. My post isn’t relevant really on this thread. Ignore me.