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What is a woman?

(210 Posts)
VioletSky Sat 26-Mar-22 12:27:16

What is a woman to me?

I feel in modern times women are being reduced to sex categories, ignoring our vast and varied biology. The very biology that for years has allowed women to be stereotyped, seen as weaker and even seen as so great in difference to other women, women were enslaved and sold.

Biology as diverse as a woman's has caused so many non white women pain and fear yet the biology of women is now somehow fixed?

Sojourner Truth "Ain't I a woman?"

Yet we are all women and that must be respected while acknowledging our differences, our separate struggles, our journeys to claiming our womanhood. The discriminations other women have faced that we don't and the discriminations other women have faced that we do because of biological diversity.

Some simply see women as one simple biological fact, men and women. Nothing else.

Some of us see it as a rainbow, A beautiful spectrum of difference and diversity. Men, women, trans, non binary people, all valid.

I wasn't born a woman, I was born a baby, I became a child, on an equal footing with boys, running and jumping and getting dirty in the mud. What was there to tell us apart but the hair and clothes chosen for us by adults?

I wasn't born a woman, society told me I was one when I reached physical maturity. Society told me what to wear, how to act.

Am I a woman? I choose my own hair, my own clothes, my personality and how to express myself in the ways that other women do that I enjoy as an individual.

Can anyone look at me and declare my womanhood undoubtedly? Probably but only because that is what I choose and how I express myself. Is that true of all people? No.

You see everything about who I am as a woman is on the inside. Its in my thoughts, my opinions, my appreciation of beautiful things, the way I would like to look, the clothes I would like to wear, in the things I appreciate about friends and family, the strength I have for my children, the love and the pure determination to be a good mother.

I am a woman on the inside, not the outside. That's how I identify. I can change the outside. I can gain or lose weight, I can wear more or less make up, I can cut my hair or grow it out. I can have my body surgically altered but who I am on the inside remains the same.

I am one woman amongst a world of biologically diverse women, not a single one of us looks exactly the same, we don't all choose to express our gender identity visually at all, yet still identify as women.

It is the same for trans women.

I am a woman and so is she.

Doodledog Sun 27-Mar-22 18:52:23

As it stands, people have a sex, and are expected, to a degree, to conform to gender norms related to that sex. Some don't want to conform and say that they 'feel like' the other sex, but nobody seems sure what that actually means.

Instead of changing sex, why not let them conform to the other sex's gender norms without eyebrows being raised - shift the gender norms, so that people don't feel the need to change sex.

Doodledog Sun 27-Mar-22 18:49:04

That's not what I'm talking about though. I mean that we could encourage people not to expect men to behave in one way and women in another.

You would still have men and women, based on sex. Still have male and female sports, prisons, loos. But nobody would care if boys wore dresses or whatever. Basically extend what is happening already, so that people wouldn't feel that they have to change sex to behave as they wish.

GagaJo Sun 27-Mar-22 18:42:18

Have you seen the outrage and uproar on here when it is suggested that we do away with the term woman? Or go to gender neutral language?

It is entrenched. Man becomes woman? OKish. Woman becomes man? Hmmm. No women/men, just people? Hell no.

Doodledog Sun 27-Mar-22 18:36:32

GagaJo

*So why not change that sort of idiocy and let people be accepted however they walk, talk or behave? It wouldn't happen overnight, but it doesn't take ages bring about a shift attitudes.*

Because sex/gender is the bedrock of our society.

I think people can understand people wanting to change to be the opposite sex better than they can understand no gender representation at all.

I'm not convinced.

People's attitudes change radically about all sorts of things. In my lifetime I can think of (off the top of my head) attitudes to sex before marriage, homosexuality, smoking, women working - all have changed beyond recognition.

I don't think it has to be no gender at all, though - just that we could reduce the link between gender and sex.

GagaJo Sun 27-Mar-22 18:35:51

That is really nice varian. I agree. I am a Granny and so is she. ❤❤❤❤❤❤

varian Sun 27-Mar-22 18:33:57

There are some folk who are British by birth.

Others were born elsewhere then came to our country for various reasons vand then decided to be British by choice.

We should accept them and welcome them.

In the same way most of us Grannies were born female, but there may be some who were not, but decided to become female. I can only imagine how difficult that decision might have been.

I think we should also welcome them to our sisterhood.

Chewbacca Sun 27-Mar-22 18:33:18

But is it weird? No. And neither is it particularly interesting.

Chewbacca Sun 27-Mar-22 18:32:07

That is SUPER interesting and very weird.
I doubt it.

Iam64 Sun 27-Mar-22 18:31:03

But is it weird? I’m not convinced

GagaJo Sun 27-Mar-22 18:29:38

Zoejory

Not sure if monkeys have been mentioned but there has been experiments with male and female monkeys and toys. The males predominately. played with the boy toys, trucks, cars etc and the females played with the dolls.

I don't think they have been forced into any societal norm.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/science-environment-29418230

That is SUPER interesting and very weird.

GagaJo Sun 27-Mar-22 18:29:13

So why not change that sort of idiocy and let people be accepted however they walk, talk or behave? It wouldn't happen overnight, but it doesn't take ages bring about a shift attitudes.

Because sex/gender is the bedrock of our society.

I think people can understand people wanting to change to be the opposite sex better than they can understand no gender representation at all.

Ilovecheese Sun 27-Mar-22 18:26:11

Doodledog
Pharmaceutical companies would lose some of their market if people could be accepted just as they are.

Mollygo Sun 27-Mar-22 18:20:54

No, DD you’re not missing anything, but some seeds will fall on stony ground.

Doodledog Sun 27-Mar-22 18:11:01

So why not change that sort of idiocy and let people be accepted however they walk, talk or behave? It wouldn't happen overnight, but it doesn't take ages bring about a shift attitudes.

I'm sure that far more people would be able to accept that, than are able to accept that TWAW. It might be less complicated when it came to relationships (eg for a heterosexual man identifying as a woman), it would cut down on concerns about spaces and sports teams, cut back on the numbers of young people who regret transitioning, and generally make more sense all round, unless I am missing something?

Iam64 Sun 27-Mar-22 18:07:58

Zoejory, there’s a whole other interesting debate to be had on the differences between male and female animals. I know more about dogs and horses than monkeys.

Zoejory Sun 27-Mar-22 18:02:19

Not sure if monkeys have been mentioned but there has been experiments with male and female monkeys and toys. The males predominately. played with the boy toys, trucks, cars etc and the females played with the dolls.

I don't think they have been forced into any societal norm.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/science-environment-29418230

GagaJo Sun 27-Mar-22 17:51:09

Actually Baggs, there is a huge field of study into how masculinity / maleness / being a 'man' is constructed. It's a very rigidly enforced category. Perhaps more so than being a woman, because after all, it's OK to be a tomboy/butch (to a degree) woman. Any man who is effeminate is automatically assumed to be gay. Which is definitely not always the case.

Transmen can take courses into how to 'walk like a man', as a metaphor for how to translate their automatic movement / attitudes into acceptably male behaviour.

Baggs Sun 27-Mar-22 16:32:00

Rosie51

Herefornow

Why do you people constantly make this about sex when it's about gender, its exhausting.

Do you consider that this 'prove it with surgery' attitude could lead to more young people having surgery that they later regret?

eh ? I'm sorry I do not follow this at all. Surely biological sex is the only constant, it can't be changed. Everything else is just fluff. Dress how you like, give yourself any name you like, live how you like, but respect single sex spaces and don't lie about your sex.

People can 'identify' any how and in any number of ways they like and should keep their human dignity and respect from others regardless. that's 'gender', which is actually a linguistic term, not a scientific one. This is why we can talk about, for example, la mesa (table) in the feminine 'gender'.

There are two sexes and sex can't be changed. That's why there is a problem when a male says he is a woman or a female says she is a man.

Funny how no-one asks "what is a man?"

GagaJo Sun 27-Mar-22 15:25:34

VS, your GC will be fortunate that whatever shape, colour, creed or sex/gender representation, you'll love and support them.

Chewbacca Sun 27-Mar-22 13:22:56

You must be so excited Rosie51, is this a first GC for you?

GagaJo Sun 27-Mar-22 12:56:08

Allsorts

You have to wonder at the constant reference and bias of Trans that some people have. Methinks it’s protesting too much.

Not sure about your point Allsorts?

Unfortunately, there is a lot of anti-trans bias around. As long as we can discuss and communicate, hopefully that bias will eventually dissipate.

Doodledog Sun 27-Mar-22 12:01:28

Congratulations, Rosie - how lovely!

I'm sure they will both be close to their granny, whatever colour you are smile.

Iam64 Sun 27-Mar-22 11:49:30

Exciting news Rosie51

Chewbacca Sun 27-Mar-22 11:17:19

Many congratulations Rosie51 flowers

Smileless2012 Sun 27-Mar-22 10:40:25

Congratulations Rosiesmile.