Lies and facts

I knew somebody who went to South Africa and lived under apartheid for a couple of decades. I bumped into him after he'd come back and said the same as your friend. Life was great for him and his family. The children went to a private school and they lived in a relatively affluent suburb. But they're white. He'd never been to one of the townships or witnessed poverty and the police state at first hand.

This is very interesting actually because it shows how a person can have a positive experience in a country as a visitor whilst some unsavoury things are actually happening but probably not known about. I’m thinking of my friend’s experience whilst her daughter and grandchildren in Rwanda.

Thank you varian. I have just watched it. It repeats much of what Oborne says in his book but I enjoyed hearing David Leigh's take on the situation. The discussion is over a year old now and much had happened since. They were absolutely right in saying how far right the Tory government has become and how dangerous that could be. It was interesting to be reminded of what happened to Aitken and Archer. Probably why Johnson will pay his fine (or fines as some predict) as to appeal would mean a court appearance and the danger of him commiting perjury and being send to jail too. I had a wry smile at Oborne saying he had written to Rees Mogg, the arch stickler for HoC procedure. I wonder if he ever replied and what he said bearing in mind what he said in his podcast four months later ?

According to Peter Oborne "Putin, Johnson, Trump - use lies as a manifestation of power."

Other politicians may lave lied but they did not want to be found out. Some resigned or went to prison when they were found out. But they don't care that you know they are lying.

Remember the TV interview with the two Russian "tourists" who had just wanted to visit Salisbury Cathedral? It was so blatantly a case of "We're lying. You know it's a lie. We know that you know - but what are you going to do about it?

On one memorable occasion Trump told the truth when he claimed he could shoot someone on Park Avenue and they (his supine uncritical supporters) would still vote for him.

Johnson doesn't care that everyone knows he is a habitual liar as long as he gets away with it. The right wing press are complicit in his lies and have helped him get away with it time and time again.

When Peter Oborne, former chief political commentator of The Telegraph, wrote " The Assault on Truth’ last year, he took part in a discussion with Open Democracy which is well worth listening to (about 53 mins)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBVCIT7Wn8k

Thank you for this list.

29 June 2021. Jacob Rees Mogg, in his podcast The MoggCast says not once but twice “What you want to know is that your Prime Minister is an honest man and the Prime Minister is unquestionably an honest man."

This was only four months after Peter Oborne published his meticulously fact-checked book The Assault on Truth describing the lies that Johnson told throughout the EU referendum campaign, throughout the the 2019 Election campaign and more.

From the book’s cover:

Political lying is a form of theft. Voters cannot make fair judgements on the basis of falsehoods. Johnson’s culture of deceit is stealing our democratic rights.

Podcast at tinyurl.com/3rv4rsc5 if you want to listen to Rees Mogg lying. About 12 minutes in.

As the thread is about lies but seems to be focussing on Rwanda, it's worth repeating that, last week, Richard Harrington, the Minister for Refuges, when asked by LBC if the government had any plans to offshore refugees to Rwanda, replied with an unambiguous no. He had no clue where such an idea might have come from. No one in the Home Office had discussed anything like this with him. Ten days later Priti Patel made an announcement about those plans.

Katie59

Rwanda and capital Kigali in particular is very safe there are no difficulties for everyday life or travel, the African countries I have travelled to are not as well developed but have been safe, the risk of getting mugged is higher in the UK or USA.

The difference is opposition to whichever government is in power or any illegal activity is likely to be stamped on by the police, that would be true in most African countries.

The police in the UK don'r make a habit of shooting protesters dead.

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202204/medium-309921-cf892569-446a-4317-b3cd-2983a8af6d51.png https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202204/medium-983310-ceb286ec-43c2-49c8-9f35-959337a2ec9e.png

Whitewavemark2

Rwanda is apparently one of the safest countries on earth!

Who knew?

Hmm

That list was an eye opener Varian. I always knew he was a lying toad but the extent of the lies is unbelievable.

I am ashamed to be British.

lixy

Fennel So what do we need from a leader?

Honesty
Respect for others
A sense of reality
A sense of pride in representing a country

'Getting things done' is a great catch phrase, but its value rather depends on what those things are.

I would just go for competence at the moment and work on the others.

I truly do not believe we have ever had a more incompetent government. A lot of the lies are just to cover this up.

Rwanda and capital Kigali in particular is very safe there are no difficulties for everyday life or travel, the African countries I have travelled to are not as well developed but have been safe, the risk of getting mugged is higher in the UK or USA.

The difference is opposition to whichever government is in power or any illegal activity is likely to be stamped on by the police, that would be true in most African countries.

Whitewavemark2

Rwanda is apparently one of the safest countries on earth!

Who knew?

I knew something about that. It’s apparently been ranked one of the ten safest African countries and sixth safest in the world for solo travellers. I don’t know how the research was done or if it would stand up to scrutiny. However I have a friend whose daughter has gone to live there because she married an African. They both work for a charity. They got married and now have three children all born there. They come home regularly to visit. Her mother, my friend has visited Rwanda and says it’s very safe and very beautiful.

Talking of energy and France - our local supermarket is building a roof of solar panels over its car park. On the outskirts of another nearby town there is a large array of solar panels, built upon land owned by that commune which is situated between the autoroute and the railway line.

Traveling back from Italy by train from a holiday taken before covid we noticed small arrays in waste land alongside the railway lines.

Not having been in back to the UK for about 4 years I don't know whether such enterprises are being developed there but, if not why not?

Fennel So what do we need from a leader?

Honesty
Respect for others
A sense of reality
A sense of pride in representing a country

'Getting things done' is a great catch phrase, but its value rather depends on what those things are.

Your're all right but I'm just being provocative.
But genuine in that many of the public seem to think that our PM should be a moral example to us all.. As well as 'getting things done'
No human being can do that. Be realistic.
So what do we need from a leader?

Fennel, I expect that you would have not lied in a situation where honesty was a condition of your employment .

Fennel the fact that anyone can possibly believe Boris Johnson to be tactically able puts me in mind of paid up members of the Flat Earth Society.

Fennel

Varian I agree 100%.
But what can we do about it?
Most of us, me included , have lied at times, to get what we want.
So the question is, do we expect a PM to be morally correct, or is it more important for him/her to be tactically able?
Not that I like BJ -but is that a reason for him not to be our PM?

We expect a PM to be law abiding. Especially when he devised the law himself.

We also expect them to tell the truth when discovered breaking the law.

I would never describe him as tactically able.

Varian I agree 100%.
But what can we do about it?
Most of us, me included , have lied at times, to get what we want.
So the question is, do we expect a PM to be morally correct, or is it more important for him/her to be tactically able?
Not that I like BJ -but is that a reason for him not to be our PM?

Coastpath

*world high energy prices*

France's Government capped the domestic price rises at just 4%. UK price cap was increased by 54% per cent.

So let's not talk about eggs, but if you want to talk about energy then why are our government not protecting us from energy costs as other governments are doing for their countries?

A leader who lies is surely even more of a liability when the world is in a state of flux.

Nothing to do with the election, the fact is that France has very high energy independence due to nuclear power, they do not have to pay others the market price that we do.

So freezing the price rise to 4% costs them very little, the profit it makes from the energy it sells us helps a lot too!.

The Conservative’s 2019 manifesto promised “at a minimum” to match the average EU subsidy of about £1.5bn a year to help the most deprived parts of the UK.

But details of the government’s Shared Prosperity Fund show that it will hand out only £2.6bn over the next three years and will not match the previous EU funding level of £1.5bn a year until 2025.

Rwanda is apparently one of the safest countries on earth!

Who knew?

maddyone assuming Macron gets in, this reduction in energy prices WILL continue. Macron is no fool and he has already faced huge public service costs from the Gilet Jaune protests. He is not going to provoke another massive uprising when he has got a far bigger agenda to deliver on. Oh that the British took to the street more. But wait: this government hasten our right to protest, so you'd end up in jail. Just like in Russia!

France has an election on. How long will the reduction last after that do you think?

world high energy prices

France's Government capped the domestic price rises at just 4%. UK price cap was increased by 54% per cent.

So let's not talk about eggs, but if you want to talk about energy then why are our government not protecting us from energy costs as other governments are doing for their countries?

A leader who lies is surely even more of a liability when the world is in a state of flux.

I would prefer the phrase ‘letting people die’ though to murdering. But in many ways it amounts to the same.
I’m fed up of seeing approximately 150 people die every day from Covid.