British Democracy?

The AV referendum was one of the two worst mistakes Nick Clegg made during the coalition years. No-one believed in AV, but it gives the FPTP enthusiasts the excuse "we've had that argument and FPTP won"

We need wholesale constitutional reform, which must of course a change to proportional representation. We cannot continue to endure a virtual dictatorship by a party which was only supported by a minority of voters.

DiamondLily

We had a vote/referendum, in the UK, during the 2010 coalition government, for changing to the AV system, and the result was that any change was rejected by 67.9% of voters on a national turnout of 42%.

AV was not a proper PR system.

I think that after the current debacle opinions could have changed, particularly among the younger voters. Of course, old people don't like change, but it's not their future, is it?

Katie59

MaizieD

Katie59

MaizieD

^ Australia isn’t a democracy, either. I’m hoping at our forthcoming election both the major political parties get a boot up the bum for not representing what most of us want.^

Do they actually know what most of you want, nanna8?

We want change!.

How many of us want to change?.

Oh, are you in Australia, too, Katie59?

No of course not, I just don’t think PR will make much difference, if Australia is an example the average survival of a PM is less than 2 yrs, that adds nothing to stability. A perpetual coalition often means being held to ransome by a minor party just like May was.

Maybe look at how Germany has managed to make coalitions work. Not only that, but the coalitions have meant there's been some degree of continuity from one government to the next and enabled long-term planning.

We had a vote/referendum, in the UK, during the 2010 coalition government, for changing to the AV system, and the result was that any change was rejected by 67.9% of voters on a national turnout of 42%.

You don't have to be in Britain to see where all the money goes.
There is a North-South divide in England that has been there for generations and always will be until we get a proportional representation. Even then it could be viewed as not fair as large mainly rural counties but with a small population get forgotten about.

varian

The SNP is ludicrously over-represented in the House of Commons.

At the last general election, the SNP gained 3.9% of the votes, resulting in 48 seats, so they are the second largest party, giving their leader all sorts of priviliges.

The Liberal Democrats gained 11.5% of the votes, resulting in only 11 MPs. The Green Party gained 2.7% of the vote and only 1MP.

How could anyone call this democracy?

The SNP's 3.9% of the total vote was spread over the 59 Scottish constituencies they stood candidates in. The Lib Dems got three times as many votes but spread over 10 times as many seats. So not really a fair comparison. You should be looking at the vote share in the seats each party contested.

Otherwise I agree with you totally. The FPTP system used for Westminster elections (and local election in England) is a disgrace and a mockery of democracy. It was useful maybe when elections were about a handful of landowners voting but it's unfit for universal franchise.

MaizieD

Katie59

MaizieD

^ Australia isn’t a democracy, either. I’m hoping at our forthcoming election both the major political parties get a boot up the bum for not representing what most of us want.^

Do they actually know what most of you want, nanna8?

We want change!.

How many of us want to change?.

Oh, are you in Australia, too, Katie59?

No of course not, I just don’t think PR will make much difference, if Australia is an example the average survival of a PM is less than 2 yrs, that adds nothing to stability. A perpetual coalition often means being held to ransome by a minor party just like May was.

Katie59

MaizieD

^ Australia isn’t a democracy, either. I’m hoping at our forthcoming election both the major political parties get a boot up the bum for not representing what most of us want.^

Do they actually know what most of you want, nanna8?

We want change!.

How many of us want to change?.

Oh, are you in Australia, too, Katie59?

MaizieD

^ Australia isn’t a democracy, either. I’m hoping at our forthcoming election both the major political parties get a boot up the bum for not representing what most of us want.^

Do they actually know what most of you want, nanna8?

We want change!.

How many of us want to change?.

^ Australia isn’t a democracy, either. I’m hoping at our forthcoming election both the major political parties get a boot up the bum for not representing what most of us want.^

Do they actually know what most of you want, nanna8?

varian

Katie59

We’re not going to get a change to PR, neither Labour or Tories are going to vote for it. It will be even more unlikely I’d. Scotland gets independence and no MPs come to Westminster, left of centre would be even less likely to form a government.

At the last Labour Party conference 83% of constituency representatives voted for a change to PR.

I've seen that the unions are more in favour of it now. It was they who blocked it at the last conference.

How is excluding people from office just because of the school they went to "democracy"?

No, it’s not a democracy but then most of those claiming to be aren’t, either. There is still too much reliance on the old public school system and class differences. Wouldn’t it be good if they could, just once, exclude all those people from parliament ? Australia isn’t a democracy, either. I’m hoping at our forthcoming election both the major political parties get a boot up the bum for not representing what most of us want.

Katie59

We’re not going to get a change to PR, neither Labour or Tories are going to vote for it. It will be even more unlikely I’d. Scotland gets independence and no MPs come to Westminster, left of centre would be even less likely to form a government.

At the last Labour Party conference 83% of constituency representatives voted for a change to PR.

We’re not going to get a change to PR, neither Labour or Tories are going to vote for it. It will be even more unlikely I’d. Scotland gets independence and no MPs come to Westminster, left of centre would be even less likely to form a government.

varian

The SNP is ludicrously over-represented in the House of Commons.

At the last general election, the SNP gained 3.9% of the votes, resulting in 48 seats, so they are the second largest party, giving their leader all sorts of priviliges.

The Liberal Democrats gained 11.5% of the votes, resulting in only 11 MPs. The Green Party gained 2.7% of the vote and only 1MP.

How could anyone call this democracy?

SNP is the third largest part after Tories and Labour.

The skewed relationship between vote share and number of seats won just shows how the vote is concentrated in a smaller part of the Union, a part which thinks very differently to the other countries of the Union. In the more PR-like Scottish Government elections, the SNP get about 48% of the seats for about 45% of the vote.

The SNP stand in a part of the Union with only 8% of the population, whereas the Lib Dems are present across the whole Union, 12 times the size of Scotland, but only get 3 times the vote.

But I do agree, the WM system is unfair.

I believe a proper PR system would be much fairer and more democratic.

Yes, a proper PR system would be fairer and result in more consistent planning over time.

Why? Because everybody in a society does matter.

What I mean by that is taking minority views into consideration and perhaps making compromises. What we have is the sledgehammer approach. If a question is framed so that 51% agree with a certain course of action, the views and concerns of 49% can be completely disregarded.

what do you mean by concessions to minorities?

who and why please.

Can we ever make a new fairer system? I would like a more scandi type of govt.

The issue of loss of faith in democracy goes further than Welsh and Scottish nationalism, although I'm not denying they're issues in their own right. I actually think many parts of England have a right to feel aggrieved by the operation of government, but I think they're different issues and are a diversion from the real reasons there's a loss of faith in democracy.

Democracy isn't just about putting a cross in a box every four years and forgetting about the intervening years. It's not like the football World Cup, despite the way it's sometimes portrayed.

There are very real questions to be asked about whether democracy serves its purpose to elect people who are the best people to make decisions for the country as a whole. Where's the red line before it becomes populism - or rule by the those who shout loudest?

The FPTP system has resulted in a government which can't by any means be claimed as truly representative of the people or serving the needs of all. The whip system and huge majority means that decisions by a very small group of individuals are being rubber stamped. There are no concessions to minorities and the government is doing just enough (it hopes) to keep the handful of voters who matter at the ballot box onside. The LibDems and Greens are ridiculously under-represented - as are right wing-parties, although we currently have a ruling party which is almost indistinguishable from the former UKIP.

In addition to a system which isn't democratic, we now have MPs who break rules with impunity, some who are rarely seen in their constituencies and, in some cases, have low moral values. This isn't a coincidence.

I'm really not surprised that people have no faith in their MPs and question democracy itself.

The SNP is ludicrously over-represented in the House of Commons.

At the last general election, the SNP gained 3.9% of the votes, resulting in 48 seats, so they are the second largest party, giving their leader all sorts of priviliges.

The Liberal Democrats gained 11.5% of the votes, resulting in only 11 MPs. The Green Party gained 2.7% of the vote and only 1MP.

How could anyone call this democracy?

Capel Celyn was flooded to supply water to Liverpool,the villagers were told if they wanted their family graves moved they would have to pay. The churchyard was flooded .

There is NO democracy in "Britain" never has been.The largest country controls the other nations even with devolution .Devolved power is power retained by the government in WM .A small amount of control is handed out to us but can be taken back at will by the likes of Bojo.They cut budgets to suit themselves ,they keep funding for their own areas ,Scottish farmers were deprived of funding that was secifially paid by the EU for them as it was "Diverted" to flood hit areas of England .
There can never be true democracy while there are a huge majority of English MP's who can overule all the other nations on every single issue ,and do!