Nationalism the fashionable form of government

I bet no-one on here thinks the Ukrainian nationalism – people fighting for the sovereignty of their nation – that's happening right now is a bad thing.

The Welsh seem able to be proud of their nation and their traditions without being jingoistic.

Welsh Labour and Plaid have formulated a co-operation agreement recently; whether that is a good thing or not remains to be seen.

As a lifelong Trade Unionist I am a firm believer that unity is strength. I didn't want to leave the EU, and I don't want to see the UK disbanded, particularly so soon after Brexit, as it would mean going from being part of a powerful union of states to a tiny part of a tiny island without time to adapt to any of it.

Having said that, I would very much like to see a better system than the current Londoncentric rule, which means that far more per head is spent on Londoners than on people in other areas. I'm not sure how devolution could work in the short term, as simply dividing us into self-governing areas would mean taking a lot of inequality with us (or keeping it for the lucky few), but ultimately I think it would be much fairer to spread the power about more.

I think I like the idea of moving parliament around the country (maybe for 5 years at a time), and insisting that cabinet members move with it. If they had to live in an area with their families they would be much more alert to regional inequalities than they are in their 'Westminster bubble', and it would help with the 'levelling up' that they claim is driving their agenda, but which won't happen as long as London is seen as the centre of the country.

If Scotland votes to leave the Union and consequently joins the EU, there will have to be a hard border between England and Scotland.

We have seen the disaster that is NI do we really want similar here on the mainland?

grannyrebel7

I am Welsh but would never want to see a dissolution of the UK. We're only a small island and I believe in unity. United we stand, divided we fall.

I agree grannyrebel17 especially after watching Putin on T.V. this morning.

Yes, but what are their objectives and how would they achieve them without a lot of monetary input from Westminster? Which by the way would leave a lot more money for the English National Health and Education System. So maybe you should change your attitude about how you think we English perceive you.

I am Welsh but would never want to see a dissolution of the UK. We're only a small island and I believe in unity. United we stand, divided we fall.

Can I just ask you Yammy did the UK ASK permission from the EU to leave that union?
If not why not?
Could it possibly be that unions are not deeds of ownership and are entered into (supposedly) voluntarily?
So can you explain WHY we need permission from the rest of the UK to walk away from this union that has never been equal or fair to the smaller nations .?
Scotland is not a colony although we have been treated as one for centuries.Its time to end this toxic union

Volver wheres that wall for banging heads against?

Who is Ian Blanford?

Tbh

I don’t think that there is a majority in any of the nations for independence at the moment.

volver

This thread was a serious discussion of the differences between nationalism and a desire for independence, for all countries in the UK. It has been brought down, I believe, by people thinking we're not clever enough to discriminate between a bad party in power and a constitutional change, and folk who tell us they're glad not to be Scottish.

I hope it can get back on track, please.

Why not a dose of your own medicine. You ridicule and lambast other people.
Explain and we might agree.
You put us in the clear picture and enlighten us, please.
Lorry parks at Gretna and Berwick. Border posts on all the ways through the Cheviots, villages cut in two i.e. Canonbie as in Northern Ireland.
Come on convince us you are right and then maybe we will back you and ask for a U.K referendum to see if all agree you should have your independence.
You might get a shock and lose a lot of tourist income besides everything else. Haven't you ever thought that maybe the majority of English people want rid of you and your constant harping Get another spokesman besides Ian Blanford you only appear to have one in Westminster?

Yammy the difference was explained in the post you quoted :

"The parties wanting independence in Scotland are not nationalist in the sense that they want independence because they think other countries are inferior to theirs. They want independence to pursue their own objectives."

This thread was a serious discussion of the differences between nationalism and a desire for independence, for all countries in the UK. It has been brought down, I believe, by people thinking we're not clever enough to discriminate between a bad party in power and a constitutional change, and folk who tell us they're glad not to be Scottish.

I hope it can get back on track, please.

This is what we're up against.

volver

Can't speak for NI or anywhere else but I will speak for Scotland. The parties wanting independence in Scotland are not nationalist in the sense that they want independence because they think other countries are inferior to theirs. They want independence to pursue their own objectives. At the risk of making tasteless comparisons, nobody is blaming Ukraine or Finland for not wanting to be part of Russia.

Many Scots don't want to be part of the UK, but that is different to dangerous nationalism.

Is it how? Please explain to the less enlightened who luckily do not live in Scotland.

Aveline

The United Kingdom can and most likely will vote in another government within the next few years if not sooner. Really foolish to dissolve a union on a small island for the sake of dissatisfaction felt by some, but not all, of the population.

It’s not directly because we currently have an inept government though Aveline, that has just exacerbated the desire for self determination rather than a London/England-centric approach, but the desire has been there, certainly in Wales which is the only country I can speak for with some knowledge, for centuries. There are many in England who want more self determination at regional level too - reform has to happen, the movement is too strong to ignore.

1960 a private bill sponsored by Liverpool council was brought before parliment , to flood a valley in Wales for a reservoir for
Liverpool,

35 out of 36 Welsh MP’s. voted against it. Capel Celyn was flooded , the people told if they didn’t want the remains of their loved ones buried in the graveyard to lay under the reservoir they would have to pay themselves to have them
removed, a Labour Government

And the treatment of the people of Aberfan was brutal, a Labour government

I would like everybody here who is having a serious conversation to understand that a desire for independence pre-dates Johnson and his band of reprobates by several decades. He may have helped it along, but he is a bit player and when he's gone, for most of us who support independence the feeling will stay the same.

To reduce a desire for constitutional change to dissatisfaction with one particular colour of governing party just displays a complete misunderstanding of the situation facing the country one lives in.

Great post DaisyAnne.

The United Kingdom can and most likely will vote in another government within the next few years if not sooner. Really foolish to dissolve a union on a small island for the sake of dissatisfaction felt by some, but not all, of the population.

Good post, DaisyAnne ?

I have never before regretted being English born and resident but our current government makes me envious of those nations of the UK which have a realistic prospect of breaking free of the 'union'.

volver

Can't speak for NI or anywhere else but I will speak for Scotland. The parties wanting independence in Scotland are not nationalist in the sense that they want independence because they think other countries are inferior to theirs. They want independence to pursue their own objectives. At the risk of making tasteless comparisons, nobody is blaming Ukraine or Finland for not wanting to be part of Russia.

Many Scots don't want to be part of the UK, but that is different to dangerous nationalism.

I don't see Scotland, Ireland or Wales as nationalist either. I can understand their wish for independence. If you are part of a "union" it is not unreasonable to want to be proportionately equal in it's governence. Our parliamentary set-up denies that. Worse still, it squews England's view of itself. The Parliment in London represents everyone and no one.

If the Union is to survive, we need and Enlish Parliament that runs England. We also need UMPs directly elected on a proportionate basis to a UK Parliament. Currently they have to represent their countries in the English/UK Parliment. The UK does not run the UK the English Parliament does.

Who can believe that the people who are meant to be running England can also run a union. The far-right running it now have already opted out of one alliance of equals because they don't want to be equal. If the worst comes to the worst, they would rather be big fish in an increasingly smaller pond. They are the ones destroying all forms of 'union' for their own ends.

Also, I could be wrong so please correct me if I am.

Aren't the nationalists in NI making a case to be part of a United Ireland, hence to be in the EU? So it's the UK union they want out of?

I'm still rattling on about Scotland... ?

Not all Unions are beneficial. Withdrawing from one Union (UK) does not mean antipathy to all Unions (EU).

I have always thought that countries do better forming a union of some sort than going at it alone.

There is strength in unity.

I do however respect the democratic process however and therein lies the conundrum.